E3 2017 Day 2: Bethesda

By Shamus
on Jun 11, 2017
Filed under:
Video Games

And so we come to the final show of Day 2. I don’t know what Bethesda will be showing off, except nobody is expecting Fallout or Elder Scrolls. I guess I’m hoping for some Wolfenstein.

You can watch the stream here. Again, I’d love to embed the stream so it’s more convenient for you, but Twitch embeds autoplay and that is really annoying.


Fallout 4 VR: I can’t imagine a game more ill-suited for VR. They just have you running around, which is ALREADY a bad idea before you take into account the high speed and glitchy controls.

Elder Scrolls Online: So we’re still pretending people care about this?

Creation Club: Paid mods. They’re announcing this like it’s a good thing, but there’s no upside for players. Also, I dislike Bethesda making money on fact that their games are seen as incomplete. This sets up terrible incentives to release games with more missing features so they can sell more user-made mods. Ew.

Dishonored 2: Death of the Outsider Okay. That’s a good way to get rid of the worst part of the Dishonored Universe. Another Dishonored DLC starring Daud, the most popular character, where he kills the Outsider, the least popular one.

Quake World Champions: Yeah. I’d watch this. In fact, I’ve been lamenting how boring it is to watch esports matches of modern shooters.

Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus Looks like the other ones. Which is really good news. I really like the last two games.

So that’s the show. Wolfenstein was the highlight for me. The “Creation Club” gives me the willies. I hope this isn’t part of an ongoing plan to impose this sort of thing on the PC. I guess we’ll see.

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From the Archives:

  1. Elemental Alchemist says:

    We all knew they were just biding their time on paid mods. I’m honestly surprised it has taken them this long. Presumably they are getting in before TESNext releases.

  2. Fade2Gray says:

    I just wanted to say thank you for watching this nonsense so I don’t have to.

  3. Christopher says:

    Wolfenstein looks like they added some extra pounds of crazy this time around. There was a cartoon chameleon in there.

    It’s cool that the DLC for Dishonored 2 is gonna be Daud and Billie again, older and back for more.

    • Leocruta says:

      So far the dishonored dlc and maybe the new metro are the only things I’m interested in. Of course, I would have to get dishonored 2 first…

    • LCF says:

      I was extremely disgruntled at WNO. Railroads of the worst sort, the game-maker thinking he’s a Director, no player agency at all besides “wait or let the movie go on”…
      It’s a nice movie to watch and a nicely written story (Kudos to the writers. Going Mad Science only without Horror was interesting. Also, character development.), but for Me, it’s a shit game.
      (Also, the Old Blood’s “It’s a new animation to go forward to the end of the corridor” two-parts pipe. Could have been used to get more mobility, more freedom to roam, but nooo, fuck you, just go forward.)
      (Also, die in your air vent Bubbie, diiiiiie! EAT MY GRENADES!)
      I anticipate Wolf II to be more of the same. I’ll watch it on some streaming website and spare the frustration. And even then…

  4. wswordsmen says:

    I predict paid mods don’t last long. There is just too much that they take away when it becomes a for profit business. For one thing you can’t have mod dependencies unless you actually get a formal contract from the mod creator, who will want there cut. You can bet every mod maker that make theirs free will have a line saying a paid mod can’t use the content unless they get a share. This means the biggest mods will all be the size of what 1 person/group can do.

    There will also be a lot of different versions of the same mod. And grab your popcorn for the legal battles that will emerge when multiple mods with the same function come out, especially if one is free.

    This will all turn into a lot of ill will towards Bethesda. I thought they learned their lesson. Of course I knew they wanted to try again, but I thought they would actually try and solve problems first.

    • Kyte says:

      From actually looking at the presentation it’s more of a fusion of mods and DLC in that the mod creator partner up with Beth developers to create a sort of small DLC (with the associated compatibility advantages compared to a regular mod). Kinda like The Sims stuff packs.

      • Sleeping Dragon says:

        I do realise this is a touchy subject but I am not against the concept in principle. Frankly, the idea that a good modder could get official Beth support and assistance in stuff like fixing compatibility issues and then be able to monetize their mod is not awful in my book. I have definitely played mods that I think would be more worth a couple bucks than some of the DLC the devs spat out.

        That said I fully expect the execution to be a mess, with “official” modders (or more likely Bethesda in their stead) hunting down mods that they see as overlappling with (or “infringing on”) their content, fights over who did what (say, three modders work on something and then one of them goes to the devs and gets supported and the battle over who owns which part of mod begins), divisions in the community and all sorts of other awfulness.

        • Kyte says:

          To be fair all that stuff already happens regularly. :V

          • Mattias42 says:

            And doesn’t Team Fortress 2’s work-shop kinda work like that already, and well at that?

            You make a design, if the TF2 team likes it, they take it and balances slash tests it for regular pay, and you get a small percentage of every one sold in the market place.

            …Think that’s the gist of it, at least. Never toyed around with it myself other then trowing a vote or two at cool looking stuff.

            Still, point being, the idea of a way for modders to make their stuff genuinely official DLC sounds like a neat, if problematic idea.

            Porn mods, anybody? Yeah, the ESRA is just going to love~ that part of it all.

            • Sleeping Dragon says:

              Regardless of how impressive some of those may be* we all know there is no way porn, or even other significantly adult themed, mods would get the support.

              *I read so in People.

            • Sleeping Dragon says:

              Ooookay, so I’m reading a little bit more on this and it actually reeks somewhat of microtransactions? Especially this bit (I’m quoting from Rock Paper Shotgun) “and you buy all of it in-game with ‘credits’ purchased for real money through Steam”. Really the last thing I need is some kind of “Buy this now with credits! Would you like to purchase credits?” plastered all over my game mobile game style…

      • Arrow says:

        You heard anyone talk about the Sims lately? The reason why everyone forgot about that game is that they removed the ability to add your own content for free. And you know ZeniMax will fight tooth and nail to shut down any an all competition to their new cashcow.

        • Kyte says:

          Uh, no? Last I checked mods for The Sims 4 are still free to make and download. The downturn has to do with other factors, among which includes a rather toxic community.

      • Writiosity says:

        You mean like they should’ve done with both Autumn Leaves and RobCo Certified, instead of just ripping them off wholesale? Hah, I’ll believe it when I see it.

  5. Kyte says:

    You can’t just pretend nobody cares about ESO when it actually has a decent-sized userbase, regular updates and obviously a positive cash flow. Just ’cause you don’t care doesn’t mean nobody else does.

    It’s also pretty good as far as MMOs go.

    • Shamus says:

      I’m basing the lack of interest on the overwhelming “meh” I heard from every single person I know. My circle of friends and the community around this blog have mostly turned up their noses at it. I played it and thought it was awful. It also doesn’t get a lot of buzz. I never see it as the subject of webcomics, memes, imgur jokes, or fan art. The gaming sites I read never talk about it. It doesn’t come up in conversation when people talk about other MMOs.

      If ESO is popular then it’s a very quiet, understated sort of popularity.

      • Da Mage says:

        I think it is just that. Most of the gaming media has ignored it, much like you never see stuff about WoW anymore, but there is still a huge playerbase that is interested in that sort of game.

        If it wasn’t making them money, they wouldn’t be constantly adding new locations and quests to the game. I know when I played it for a bit there was a really good density of people playing, and they haven’t gone away.

        For better or worse, ESO is doing pretty good for a post-WoW MMO.

      • Kyte says:

        Barely any MMOs have made news recently. Not even WoW.

        It’s not different from LotRO, for example, which has enjoyed this sort of quiet popularity for a long, long time.

      • Eichengard says:

        Yeah, I have friends that play ESO, which I was surprised about. They’re pretty serious gamers (PC and PS4) so it seemed out of character, but they said it’s got a really big following of console players. Guess it scratches that MMO itch in a console / sofa in the living room kind of way.

      • Supah Ewok says:

        I think it’s a fairly big hit on consoles. There are folks to whom Skyrim is the definition of RPG, and ESO is the closest thing to MMO Skyrim. Most of those folks are exclusively console players, which I suspect is why there aren’t many of them around here.

      • trevel says:

        It apparently has around 770K subscribers, and I’ve seen claims of 8.5 million “players”, although I’m not sure what metric that goes by. If it means they’ve sold 8.5 million copies of the game, that’s pretty decent.

        I played it myself recently, and it’s good? Like, not perfect, but the PvP was fun and engaging, the dungeons were decent (not as good as TSW), and they’d changed the balance so that the entire world is now available at every level, so you can instantly go to whatever areas you want. You can sneak-attack mobs if you get behind them and kill them in one hit … it’s not a perfect MMO, nor a perfect Elder Scrolls game, but it’s certainly not dead.

      • Hal says:

        To be fair, if you’re an active MMO player, it’s not like you have time to do anything else.

      • Cinebeast says:

        I can only speak in anecdotes. My mom’s been a fan of the game since she picked it up for the PS4 in 2015, and she preordered the Morrowind expansion, which just dropped last week. She is exclusively a console player, though, and Skyrim is her all-time favorite game, so I guess that all makes sense.

        I’m also playing it right now (in-between my sessions with Persona 5, of course) and I think it’s decent. There’s no meat to it, but it scratches that grinder’s itch I get now and again.

      • Alex says:

        I think it’s a fair point to make that you personally don’t have anyone in your circle playing it, or that you haven’t seen much (if any) press coverage on the game, but that’s not what I got from “so we’re still pretending people care about this”. That’s just being snarky for the sake of it.

      • djw says:

        I have spent a fair amount of time playing ESO. I am on hiatus from the game now, but I am sure that I will at some point go back, because I have found the game to be enjoyable.

        There were problems at release that have mostly been solved, or at least dramatically reduced. In particular, the massive bot fest and the constant gold seller spam that plagued the game for many months after release has been reduced to a tiny trickle.

        ESO is an active game, which means that you do not spend all of your time focused on your cooldown bar. You need to manage magicka and stamina in order to fuel your skills, dodges, and blocks, but there are no cooldowns to manage on top of that. You can also (albeit with some effort) convert from tank to dps to heals on a single character.

        With the release of “One Tamriel” last fall you can go to any zone and find level appropriate challenge and level appropriate loot. Its similar to Guild Wars 2, except that you scale up, instead of down, so NONE of the zones are level gated anymore.

      • Daemian Lucifer says:

        To everyone jumping on Shamus’s throat:Remember what the publishers are saying about their video games.Even when they sell millions,they are still considered a flop because they havent sold even more.So even though plenty of people are playing this mmo(or any mmo),is it the number that the publisher wants?If not,then in their eyes its like no one cares.So even if technically incorrect,Shamus’s statement is still correct.

      • Adam says:

        I played ESO in beta and when it first came out and have started dabbling in it again to decide if I want to try out the Morrowind expansion (lots of nostalgia there, for me). It is not an Elder Scrolls game in the sense that most people think of it due to some of the specific limitations it set for itself by being a theme-park style MMORPG.

        That said, it does a remarkably competent job of just being fun. Discovering an entirely new line of skills from just playing the game and trying something new is fun. Discovering skill points via exploration is fun. Successfully stealing from NPCs (what?! in an MMORPG??) is fun. The crafting system has some real depth to it. Combat also has some real depth to it and does a good job of not being mindless while also not being a chore. There is a sense of some genuine passion and attention to detail in the quest lines and world building. It’s not the best MMORPG in the world, but for me it’s the best one since WoW, with the possible exception of FFXIV and Destiny, depending on which aspects of the MMORPG experience are most important to you.

        Of course, I’m not a big fan of the segmentation of player base with the whole “ESO plus” subscription model and all the transparently artificial limitations on those who think spending $40-$60 on a game shouldn’t make them a second class citizen, but that’s a different debate. The game itself is… really pretty good, particularly given the current state of the genre.

        • djw says:

          My understanding is that they dropped the subscription fee so that the console crowd would not get hit by two fees to play online (one for ESO, and the other for the console). I’m not sure if I have the details on this right, but I’m sure its on the internet somewhere.

          In any case, you can get *most* of what subscription gets you for free. The bottomless craft bag is the only truly unique subscription feature.

          • Ciennas says:

            They also exchange it for 1500 RealCurrencyBux, which you can use on nonaccessible content like costumes or to permanently unlock DLC. So if you don’t wanna spend “““““““around 80 bucks for that content all at once, you can let it build up.

          • Adam Twede says:

            Sure, I get that, but the craft bag is kind of a killer. I’m constantly out of inventory space due to the sheer amount of STUFF, EVERYWHERE. In order to actually progress in the game instead of spending all my time picking crap up off the ground, I forced myself to pick only two crafting skills and even then I just haven’t been able to keep on top of it at all. At this point I’ve just resigned myself to not doing any crafting at all until I can get a better sense of what will be most useful to me further down the line.

            Which is kind of a bummer, because the crafting system seems really fun. I did a bit of crafting when the game first came out and remember really liking it and was looking forward to seeing what’s changed since then, but I can’t justify, on principle if nothing else, spending $15 before I’ve even determined A) if I am going to keep playing the game for more than a few weeks and B) if crafting is worthwhile to me at all given the requirements in time and money. Kind of a Catch-22, huh?

            It seems really short-sighted to me to essentially paywall an important and interesting aspect of the game to new or returning players. How am I supposed to know if I want to pay $15 per month in addition to the box purchase for what amounts to a craft bag if, in practice, I’m forced to choose between questing and crafting due to the onerous inventory requirements of both?

            I’ve just never been a fan of inventory management in general in RPGs because it’s so often poorly done and serves virtually no purpose than to add artificial burdens on the player, and then to be nickel and dimed for it here? That’s just salt in the wound.

            But then again this is Zenimax we’re talking about, notorious misers that they are, so I’m not surprised this is the business model they’ve chosen. None of this is even getting into what I think of the “Crown Store.”

            • djw says:

              I have a bit of a different perspective on the crafting bag.

              The game did not have it at release. I don’t remember precisely when it was added, but I think it was at least a year later.

              I still maxed out all possible craft lines on my (three) different toons. It was a huge hassle to keep all that junk in my bank, but with enough inventory discipline it was possible. Mind you, this was at a time when the game was subscription only, so I was also paying the subscription fee at that time.

              Now the game is buy to play, but they still need *some* revenue stream to keep the servers running. I know from experience that it is *possible* to play a crafting character without the craft bag. The craft bag is a HUGE convenience, but it is not really mandatory. For a beginning character you might actually be better off selling all your crafting mats anyway, since you can earn big bucks even with low level (raw) mats if you join a guild with a decently placed trader.

              In any case I am fine with using the bag as the carrot to entice subscribers. Your mileage may vary.

      • Shoeboxjeddy says:

        I think after the large update they did, you’d have to play it again to see if you still hate it. They revamped combat, leveling, exploration, the works.

  6. Daemian Lucifer says:

    Creation Club: Paid mods. They’re announcing this like it’s a good thing, but there’s no upside for players.

    There is for the modders.Any way for them to legally cash in on their hard work,without hoping that someone will notice them and allow them to make a game,is a good thing in my eyes.HOWEVER:

    Also, I dislike Bethesda making money on fact that their games are seen as incomplete.

    Yes,I really wish someone other than bethesda was pushing this.Someone who makes complete games where mods are mostly there to change the game rather than fixing it.

    • Raygereio says:

      There is for the modders.Any way for them to legally cash in on their hard work,without hoping that someone will notice them and allow them to make a game,is a good thing in my eyes.

      As an actually modder: the whole thing is stupid and will add another layer of toxicity to a community that doesn’t need yet another toxin to add to the existing mix . No sane person wanted this. The only one who honestly thinks this is a good idea is the corporate suite who looks at mods and yells something about wanting their cut.

      As for the “hoping that someone will notice them and allow them to make a game”-bit: That ain’t happening. Never will.
      Sure, we all know the success stories of modders who got hired by a dev studio. But in those cases said modder put the mod they made on their resume. In the people who want to do that, keeping it up for free would be the intelligent choice as putting an example of your work behind a paywall is a bad idea if you want the dude handling the hiring process to actually take a look at your stuff.
      Also those big quest / overhaul mods could potentially look good on your resume? The wording doesn’t explicitly forbid them, but it seems obvious they’re discouraged. For example one of the requirements is that the content is fully localized. Now translations are generally handled by other modders who like your work and will do it for free. Good luck getting that done when you’re going to put it for sale and still want to turn a profit. Or finding anyone crazy enough to do voice acting for free for your “creator club content”.
      And don’t get me started on the fact that a lot (easily the majority) of the cool and awesome mods outright require, or are build upon the work of other modders and the whole potential for e-drama that will be.

      Here’s what Bethesda probably wants to have happen: They don’t want your mod that overhauls game balance, adds new features or quests. They want people making basic retextures and poop out some half baked weapon/armor meshes. Simple stuff that’s easy to do QA for, looks shiny and can be sold at microtransaction prices.

      • Raygereio says:

        Ghetto edit…

        Don’t get me wrong. It would be awesome if modders could create a team and be given a budget so that they can approach other talent like voice actors, moddelers, etc. The core concept of a company giving modders a platform to work from is not bad and if handled well you could start seeing some pretty awesome content that simply wouldn’t be feasible for a single hobbyist.
        But there’s no way that would actually happen.

    • What many seems to forget (even modders) is that these will basically be community DLCs.

      They will be available on PC, Xbox, and PS4 (full featured mods). With no limitations as they will be fully QA tested, the content will be checked to make sure it’s not stolen or breaks trademarks (Bethesda may possibly mediate a permission to use certain trademarks too). Bethesda may provide financial support or manpower for the completion of certain mods.

      Popular modders will be able to contact Bethesda or will be invited by Bethesda. A unknown person will not be able to sell their mods through this.

      By the sound of it Bethesda is doing what Valve should have done originally with Greenlight.

      Without Bethesda’s help there is no way a modder will be able to get a full mod on the PS4 as Sony will not allow that. but as a official “DLC” Sony will allow it (Bethesda will go through the certification program that Sony requires).

      The largest benefit are for PS4 players, and to some extent Xbox players (larger mods possible), for PC players the difference from say Nexus mods + a donation to the mod creator will be minor.

      It is also possible that Bethesda may provide extra assets (not present in a game) to be used by modders.

      These will be premium, QA/tested and console certified mods.

  7. Lachlan the Sane says:

    Question for Shamus; how do you feel about watching Overwatch matches? I don’t watch many pro games, but when I play it, it feels a lot like a Quake/TF2-style Actually Fun Shooter.

    • Shamus says:

      I find Overwatch kind of hard to follow sometimes. I don’t know the maps, I don’t know the classes, and often the audience cam switches angles without any way to know how this view relates to the others. It’s also got a lot of particle effects that make it hard to see who is doing what. I think you need to play a few rounds to really appreciate it.

      Having said that, it’s still kinda fun. It’s a lot more entertaining to watch than (say) Counter Strike / Call of Duty.

      As a viewer, a straight-up shooter is a little too boring after a while, due to the lack of special abilities / classes. At the other extreme, DOTA is incomprehensible to someone who hasn’t played the game. I think Overwatch represents a nice mid-point between these two extremes.

      • AndrewCC says:

        The thing with MOBAs like League of Legends or DOTA2 is that if you do know a bit about the game (meaning you have a couple hundred hours played AT THE VERY LEAST) they make for the best esport viewing experience.
        It’s like watching an actual sport match, while FPSs are like watching a football game filmed by GoPros that the players are wearing: confusing and unsatisfying.

        • Lachlan the Sane says:

          It’s hard to disagree with either of you. At least when a hypothetical newbie watches, say, competitive TF2, it’d be easy enough to take a wild guess at what some of the characters do, even if they don’t get on top of the strategy (for example, the guy with big minigun named “Heavy” gets his goal across pretty well). Overwatch is slightly faster than TF2, with even more particle effects, and a much greater variety of characters whose purpose are not so immediately apparent.

          I’m reminded of something Shamus wrote something a couple of years back questioning why RTS eSports (specifically Starcraft) aren’t more popular. They have same the camera angle advantage as MOBAs with the advantage of it being much easier to guess at each unit’s role and who’s currently ahead in the match.

          • Droid says:

            “(for example, the guy with big minigun named “Heavy” gets his goal across pretty well)”

            Uh… other players can’t carry him?

          • AndrewCC says:

            There’s a few factors:
            1. Competitive RTS is 1v1, people tend to enjoy team sports more, it’s easier to root for a team.
            2. RTS are less exciting to watch, they lack the visual impact of MOBA character’s spells and abilities.
            3a. There’s only ever been 1(and its sequel) RTS game that really took off in ccompetitive play: Starcraft.
            3b. Since Blizzard can’t continually monetise the players like Valve and Riot can by selling skins and visual decoration for their characters, they are not incentivised to push the game. This is why they made Overwatch.

            • Tohron says:

              Actually, Blizzard does sell skins for game units in Starcraft II (and it seems they sell decently, since they continue to make more). And Blizzard has continued to sponsor SC2 tournaments like WCS.

              As for the popularity issue, it feels to me like a momentum thing. MOBAs like LoL and DotA2 are free, whereas SC2 LotV opened at $40 and still costs $30. So more people are playing MOBAs, and since both RTSs and MOBAs require a decent amount of viewer understanding to appreciate what’s happening, there are more potential eSports viewers for the latter.

        • MelTorefas says:

          I have never played DOTA2 (except a handful of matches against the AI long ago), but it is by far my favorite esport to watch. I won’t disagree that it is hard to get into; I had to do a lot of pausing VODs at first to look up terminology, and I still sometimes stop and look up a hero’s abilities if I am not familiar with them. But it is certainly not something you can only get into if you have played it.

          • AndrewCC says:

            Generaly if it’s fun to watch it’s also fun to play. So there’s little reason not to do both, as long as there’s not a big barrier to entry.

  8. SkrEEmeR says:

    Hey Shamus, what about comments on The Evil Within 2? I see it’s missing from the list.

  9. DavidJCobb says:

    Bethesda was very unclear about the Creation Club in their presentation, but going by what’s on their site, it sounds much more like third-party/contract mini-DLC than paid mods.

    Creators are required to submit documentation pitches which go through an approval process. All content must be new and original. Once a concept is approved, a development schedule with Alpha, Beta and Release milestones is created. Creations go through our full development pipeline, which Creators participate in. Bethesda Game Studios developers work with Creators to iterate and polish their work along with full QA cycles. The content is fully localized, as well. This ensures compatibility with the original game, official add-ons and achievements.

    Mods will remain a free and open system where anyone can create and share what they’d like. Also, we won’t allow any existing mods to be retrofitted into Creation Club, it must all be original content. Most of the Creation Club content is created internally, some with external partners who have worked on our games, and some by external Creators. … We’ve looked at many ways to do “paid mods”, and the problems outweigh the benefits. We’ve encountered many of those issues before.

    Speaking as an author myself, that’s not the development process used on the average mod, and I don’t think most authors could manage it. It sounds like the kind of thing a whole studio would go through to do third-party work on a franchise, and the process just happens to be open to individuals if they can manage it.

    • Galad says:

      I was, and still am, one of the people who just does not see a way for paid mods to be implemented that doesn’t turn out to be awful, and this seems well worded and reasonable in theory. It remains to be seen how it works in practice.

      • Mephane says:

        and this seems well worded and reasonable in theory.

        Well it seems they might follow the same BS-that-is-almost-a-scam strategy of their own internal currency:

        That content includes new weapons, armour, crafting and housing features, and changes to core systems, and you buy all of it in-game with ‘credits’ purchased for real money through Steam.

        Source: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/06/12/creation-club-is-bethesdas-alternative-to-paid-mods/

        It may very well be that you can buy the precise amount of “credits” that you need for a specific bit of content, but until this is proven to be the case, experience tells us that most likely credits will be purchasable in amounts that are always larger than whatever you want to buy.

        • Agammamon says:

          Well, I was onboard until the ‘in-game purchase with credits’ bit came up.

          No thanks. Won’t be using this service. Just price it and let me pick it from a third party browser – because an in-game one will just suck ass if nothing else – and pay for it with real money. I mean, we’ve seen how they handle controller UI’s and how bad it is and they already ignore the M&KB.

          The in-game transaction crap is directly marketed to kids – get your parents to buy some credits, spend it on useless junk, whine until they buy some more.

  10. Dreadjaws says:

    There are many problems with the “paid mods” system, whether Bethesday insists in using a different terminology or not. Mainly the fact that the idea is so unpopular that it instantly crashed and burned the moment it was implemented the first time.

    I’ve ranted about this elsewhere, but here are a few things to take into consideration:

    1) Yes, being paid for your work is nice, but it also means your costumers have higher expectations of your work. You cannot just work at your own pace and release updates as you see fit, you have to make time to work on this lest your customers get impatient. It’s a job now, will both its pros and cons.
    2) The “credit” system is problematic. It’s clear that it will be a “Bioware Points”-like system in which you’re forced to buy them in packs instead of just paying the actual cost of the mod. Otherwise, they’d simply use money instead of “credits”.
    3) Working under the direction of Bethesda effectively turns modders into developers and Bethesda into the publisher. You don’t need to read their blurb to know the mods will be restricted. Now they’ll have to follow rules and demands to make these mods, so creativity will be severely impaired.
    4) Also, and this is important: it goes against the spirit of modding. The entire purpose of the modding community is gamers creating free content for other gamers you enjoy. Again, it’s nice to be paid for your work, but it doesn’t feel right in this case.

    It’s like if you did volunteer work by giving food to the homeless and someone showed up and said “We’ll pay you for this. But you have to work where we say and only give food to those we ask you to. And now those people will have to sew clothing for the food, but you’ll now be compensated for your work. It’s pretty much the same, only now there are more benefits to you!” Yeah, no, it’s not the same, no matter how nice a picture you’re trying to paint.

    • Daemian Lucifer says:

      Thats a very bad analogy because gamers arent homeless,and mods arent necessary for them to live.In fact,mods arent even necessary for them to enjoy the game.A more apt analogy would be if you had a casino with an open mic where people tell jokes,and then the manager of the casino says “Everyone who wants to do a whole routine,and is willing to go through our joury that would decide if their routine was good,can get some free chips,but everyone else can just tell a joke or two for free as per usual.We will just give prime spot to these few premium comedians.”.

      • Dreadjaws says:

        No, that’s a terrible analogy. “Open mic” is unavoidable if you want to simply be in the Casino, doing your thing and you don’t care about listening to jokes, while mods are optional. Furthermore, unlike mods, jokes are an entirely different thing from what someone usually expects from a Casino experience (I guess a bar would be more apt).

        Also, the manager of the Casino would be saying that you can only make certain kinds of jokes and not just any kind you wanted. And customers would have to pay a premium fee to listen to these routines. Also, they had to purchase the Casino’s own currency to pay for the routines. A currency that, mind you, can’t be used for anything else.

        Really, really not a good analogy.

        • Daemian Lucifer says:

          “Open mic” is unavoidable

          Only if the casino is very very tiny.Usually they arent,and have multiple rooms.What I had in mind was a single stage,not an all encompassing audio system.

          Furthermore, unlike mods, jokes are an entirely different thing from what someone usually expects from a Casino experience

          You are really stretching it with this.The point of an analogy is not a 1:1 projection.I mean,I can easily say that mods are not what most people expect from a game(as can easily be seen by the number of sales of skyrim on consoles).It really is irrelevant.

          Also, the manager of the Casino would be saying that you can only make certain kinds of jokes and not just any kind you wanted.

          Depending on the game,you already cant make ANY kind of mods.I doubt that making a pedophilia mod for skyrim would be up for long.

          And customers would have to pay a premium fee to listen to these routines.

          There are already casinos that ask you to pay extra for stuff like stage access,or room service,or many of the extras that they offer.

          Also, they had to purchase the Casino’s own currency to pay for the routines. A currency that, mind you, can’t be used for anything else.

          Chips are exactly that.

          • Dreadjaws says:

            “Chips are exactly that.” Yeah, but in your analogy you could use chips for the casino and to pay for the routines. In this case, you can’t. There will be a new currency and you won’t be able to pay with chips.

            And your point about analogies not being 1:1, well, you can easily apply that to my original analogy, for which you had one complaint only. Jeez. If you’re gonna be your classic contrarian, at least make sure your arguments are not canceling each other.

            • Daemian Lucifer says:

              And your point about analogies not being 1:1, well, you can easily apply that to my original analogy,

              No,you cant.Theres a difference between the core of the analogy and the scale of it.

              And wait,Im being classic contrarian?And what exactly are you trying to do?Even if you manage to show that my analogy is not apt for the situation,that still wont make your analogy good,or even better than it.Yet you decide to oppose it because….ummm,I made it?

              Im done,think what you wish.

    • Retsam says:

      The fact that the idea was unpopular doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea. Yes, I’m not surprised that there was huge backlash to the Steam mods: Steam tried to take too large of a cut, and a lot of gamers aren’t going to look past the short term downside of “I might need to pay for stuff that’s currently free” to the long term gain of more and better mods, as modding becomes a more consistently financial viable prospect.

      Regarding your arguments:

      1) The fact that it’s a paying job means that people can actually invest time and money into means that it can actually be a higher-quality product. Yes, there will be a bit more complaining about development delays and mod bugs and such, but I can pretty much guarantee that nobody who works a job has ever though “Man, all the pressure that having paying customers puts on me sure is a pain, it’d sure be better if I wasn’t getting paid for this”.

      2) No comment, I haven’t paid attention to this particular implementation of paid mods, and yeah, I don’t know that this iteration will be any less poorly implemented than the Steam version. I’m defending paid mods in theory, not in this particular example.

      3) Again, getting into specifics, but it sounds like Bethesda is mostly doing quality control and a bit of curation: trying to keep a million competing paid mods for the same idea, trying to ensure that mods aren’t making ridiculous promises, etc. I doubt they’ll be having a ton of creative control, (and remember that this system is optional)

      4) I’m pretty sure “mods should be free” is part of the spirit of people who use mods, not part of the spirit of modders. It’s not like I’ve done a survey or anything, but “I should get unlimited user-created content for this game for free” sounds a lot more reasonable than “Nobody should pay me for all this work that I’m putting into this project with my highly valuable skillset!” Yes, there are the Linux Torvalds out there who feel strongly about things being free, but I don’t think it’s necessarily an essential part of the community.

      And again, this system (and probably any paid mod system) is opt-in. If there really are developers who would rather work for free than deal with the expectations of paying customers, or mod developers who would rather have complete creative liberty, or mod developers who just strongly believe that mods should be free, Bethesda isn’t going to stop them from making free mods. They just don’t need to opt-in to this system.

      • Bubble181 says:

        See, “quality control and curation” is part of the problem.
        Sure, it sounds nice, but it also means mods will be limited as to what is possible.
        Nude pack? Ohhh, nope, sorry, can’t have R-rated content.
        A complete Star Trek overhaul in Skyrim? Yeah, no, no can do, once it’s paying, you can’t just use other people’s IPs.
        Completely hilariously game-breaking overpowered weapons? I doubt it – it goes “against the spirit of the game”.
        And so forth.

        • Teddy says:

          You’re not wrong that we’re not going to see any Star Trek overhauls in the Creation Club, but I think that’s okay. This doesn’t replace mods, this is Bethesda sponsoring modders. If someone wants to make a nude Star Trek mod, they still can. And if it’s really good, Bethesda may hire them to make something completely different for the Creation Club.

          I’m thinking back to the Premium Modules for Neverwinter Nights. NWN had a *massive* modding community that pumped out loads of content that was better than the original game. So Bioware says, “Hey, let’s harness this,” and hired several of the best/most prolific mod makers to make some official Bioware modules. And you know what? Those premium mods were some of the best stuff in NWN, because you had some of the best content creators working directly with Bioware to make sure everything worked perfectly. Plus it was a good way for you to support your favorite modders.

          I think this looks a lot more like that than it does paid mods. I think it’s less like paid mods, and more like they’re expanding their hiring pool when it comes to making DLC.

        • Agammamon says:

          Creation . . . whatever the hell its called – won’t be the only place to get mods from.

          There will still be Nexus – where the free mods will be.

  11. Ivan says:

    Did that stream link expire, or something? All I get is an advertisement, and then it finishes the ad, and sits at the last image of the ad, forever. Nothing else happens. If I’m supposed to click somewhere in this incomprehensible page of icons and sidebars, please tell me where to click to get to the video.

  12. AndrewCC says:

    In response to everyone giving Bethesda shit for Creation Club, remember that you’ve all been perfectly fine with Valve doing the EXACT SAME THING (3rd party makes something, Valve sells it, keeps a part of the $) for years. Hats in TF2 and Dota2 equipment are the exact same, only Valve has been really f**king the creators in the a** lately.
    But for some reason, people are perfectly fine with bending over for Valve.

    • Galad says:

      Just because one company got away so far with ugly, anti-consumer practices, doesn’t mean everyone else gets a free pass. Also, I care not of cosmetic things and very rarely would spend money on them. The whole CSGO skins thing is foreign to me, so I am less likely to be outraged by Valve’s practices – easier to just ignore them – than by Bethesda possibly screwing up mods for practically everyone that would like to customize their game now and then

      • AndrewCC says:

        If a content creator is confident enough in his product to submit it through Bethesda’s approval process, in order to make a living off his work, then I am all for it, the added compatibility and QA is a big plus.
        There is absolutely nothing that would stop content creators putting their mod out there for free on the Nexus.
        The manual curation of the content will stop scams and content “flippers” who steal other’s work, which was the big problem with paid mods.
        If you’re afraid that good modders will only put out paid content if the pay is good/the process is painless enough, that feeling I can understand, but sadly you have no right to demand someone else’s work for free.

    • Agammamon says:

      Warframe is doing the same sort of thing.

  13. Merzendi says:

    Fallout 4 VR: I can’t imagine a game more ill-suited for VR.

    Did you not see DOOM VR, Shamus? Gotta circlestrafe via clunky VR teleportation.

    • Stu Hacking says:

      The teleportation system in VR looks a bit clunky (to me, an outside observer), but it’s made me wonder whether instead of full movement games like Doom/Fallout, we could have a mix of the Doom RPG / Grimrock style grid based movement but with full view range. So a player could move through the world in fixed increments but the combat is a real-time system.

      I think turn-based combat would be too odd for VR, but real-time combat might still put the player at too much of a disadvantage… Maybe each standing location would need a quickly accessible ‘crouch’ position. I guess at this point I’m just talking about Time Crisis/Virtua Cop.

      • Jan says:

        I recently tried a Doom 3 source mod that includes VR with teleportation at a friend. Horrible experience, all the clumsy moving around, pointing the VR teleport was very awkward, especially with height differences.

        If it weren’t for the good Valve stuff, and American Truck Simulator, it would’ve put me off VR for good. As it is, I’m positive about VR in puzzle games like the Witness, where fast movement isn’t an issue, or in driving/flying simulators. But FPS without a good omnidirectional treadmill I expect to be either very awkward and slow, or vomit comets.

  14. Hypatia says:

    I did not expect to see communist Southerners in Wolfenstein, but it is a good surprise.

  15. Fred Fredd says:

    So am I an idiot for thinking that the field of stars they used as their background might be a hint that they were going to preview Starfield the game? Was it a tease? Is that game a myth? Or just wishful thinking on my part?

  16. kanodin says:

    To me bethesda’s new paid mod plan seems aimed a lot more at consoles than pcs. Mostly because they could not get away with removing free mods on PC, only competing with them. Consoles though only just got mods in the past few years and console players tend to prefer the kind of ease of use paid mods will provide, and already accept it with minecraft.

    I do think if they could get away with monetizing all mods on pc they would, but for right now they’ll probably do the microsoft strategy of slow erosion over total removal.

    • Retsam says:

      I’m guessing they’re really looking down the road. It doesn’t matter if they don’t get a ton of Skyrim mods, they just want the Creators Club to be ready to go – with the wrinkles in the process ironed out, and the negative PR storm out of the way – before they release their next big tentpole open-world game.

  17. Agammamon says:

    I’m getting tired of bullshots in these promo videos. I’ve got ESO – with everything maxed out in the settings there’s no way you can get it to look as good as it does in their videos.

  18. Adeon says:

    I’m going to disagree with you on paid mods, Shamus. Paid mods are only inherently bad for the consumer if you assume it’s a zero sum game where every paid mod is one that would have been made and released for free if payment wasn’t an option. In theory paid mods allow for mod makers to make a living (or partial living) making mods and therefore spend more time making them, resulting in more mods overall.

    Now, part of this depends on Bethesda doing a large amount of vetting and quality control for the paid mods (as well as verifying legal ownership). They will also need to pay the mod creators a fair amount and not cut off free mods. They have stated elsewhere that they won’t be preventing free mods, but we’ll have to wait and see how they do on the other two items.

  19. Decius says:

    I think that opening the Overton Window to allow for people to create more content and get paid for it without a huge barrier to entry is going to result in very big benefits in the long term.

    For example, if people could get the ToEE engine open to people fixing the bugs, updating the rules, and publishing new adventures, I bet we could get a large number of professionally written D&D campaigns ported to a game system that can actually implement the rules mostly properly.

    • Zekiel says:

      I would like to quietly weep about being reminded about how awesome the TOEE engine was, while also being painfully broken (and pretty much ensuring it’d never be used in another game).

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