I’ve pirated before, but pirating an indie game is just wrong! I mean pirating in general is wrong and I’m an A-hole for doing it, but there’s only so low you can go.

I have followed your instructions, though I have not pirated a game, just be safe.
Is a burning, searing pain a normal side effect?

Pirating is theft, plain and simple, and NONE of them are Robbin Hood. Fueled only by greed. I used to pirate, ill admit it. I felt It was my privlage to try before I buy. Seeing as there is a lack of demos these days. This changed when I achieved a steady income, and knew I had enough cash flow to buy (though I really wish I would have pirated hellgate london, would have saved me $50 poorly spent).
Support the products you like, it shows that your willing to spend your hard earned money on products you like. And when they know what you like, they can tailor the product to you.

I’ve pirated games books for my favorite RPG, but to be honest I’ve only done it to get electronic copies to keep on my laptop. I did go through my collection and realized that I had some modules that I didn’t own physical copies of, so I had to go purchase those.

Not saying I’m any better than other pirates, just doing some weak justification.

Krellen,

A lot of people can’t afford health care and a lot of people can’t afford FOOD. They do need both to survive.

For example, your advice falls flat in the face of a working mother (who was a friend of mind) having her abscessed tooth pulled in an E.R., because she couldn’t afford decent dental care, and her job didn’t offer a health plan. Even in the E.R. she still couldn’t afford it, but she was running a life-threatening fever, so they were not allowed to turn her away.

Guess who gets stuck with the bill?

People suffer greatly from not being able to afford the things they need all the time. It’s one thing to say that they aren’t entitled; I’d agree with that. It’s another thing entirely to claim that such situations don’t happen.

That said, “If you can’t afford something truly unnecessary, DON’T OBTAIN IT ILLEGALLY” is probably what you really meant to say, and I can agree with that 100%.

The “games are too expensive” justification goes away when you’re pirating $10-$20 games.

The truth is: piracy is all about lazyness, greed, and ignorance. It has nothing to do with idealism. There isn’t a reason for the pirates to not pirate indie games when they’re already pirating everything else.

I suggest all the people dealing with anti-piracy measures be called Ninjas and that they face the Pirates in open battle. No one survives. So, all the DRM programers are dead and all the pirates are dead. Everyone is happy.

Zaghadka said:
A lot of people can’t afford health care and a lot of people can’t afford FOOD. They do need both to survive.

While I am not without sympathy – I’ve spent the past four years working for non-profits, including a Food Bank, and will likely spend the rest of my life doing the same – I can’t help but suspect that much of this stems from indiscriminate spending elsewhere. Yes, there are people for whom the necessities are in fact a question everyday, but the number who are truly in this position not of their own fault are small; much of this is a side-effect of them purchasing things they didn’t need in other realms. Housing is a big one; not everyone needs to own a house, and not everyone with kids needs to own a house. When you surrender the “need” for a house and instead find an apartment/condo with sufficient space to live in, you free up a lot of money from your budget; mortgages tend to run in the thousands, while rent is in the hundreds*.

The health care problem is a bit of a different beast, because it’s simply a broken system. But no one steals health care. Sometimes they get it free and taxpayers/investors eat the loss, but it wasn’t stolen – it was given freely.

*Regional variations apply.

Krellen, I gotta take issue with the line “not everyone needs to own a house”. Without getting all sentimental here, owning your residence is the American dream … it’s also the single most important investment you’ll ever make in your future. I don’t care if it’s a 1 BR condo, owning is always better than renting and that is not likely to change.

The reason the mortgage industry is crashing is because some banks made stupid loans to people for houses that are way more expensive than they can afford. Everybody wants the newest, biggest, and best with all the modern bells and whistles, even if they have to take out a 40 year mortgage and make interest-only payments on it. That’s a recipe for disaster … which is exactly where we are right now.

Four words are all that’s needed to set people right and it’s something that our parents, grandparents, and their parents knew how to do … live within your means.

to those that say, “I won’t do it again..”.. fine.. but that indie game company also won’t put anything out again.. because they went broke.. you buying the game the next time does nothing for the dude you stole from the first time.

It only keeps you from committing another crime.

I have some thoughts about that “sense of entitlement” you mention Krellen, but my feelings on this topic get political pretty quickly and wife turns purple whenever I start going down that path in a public forum. As she points outs out, getting people to like you is much more effective for increasing readership of a webcomic than insulting everyone who comes to it for entertainment.

But whatever.

I know I kind of consider it a privilege to be able to pay for the things I want these days. It makes me feel good about myself, and about the system I’m supporting. I find that I enjoy the products and their creators more because I feel I’m actually invested in them. Sometimes I can’t afford something the instant I want it, but when did saving up to get something special become so outré? What if I wanted a computer and broke into someone’s house and just took it? How is that different?

If you gotta be a thief, steal office supplies from work. Don’t steal the dreams of a guy who is trying to find a job that makes him happy.

I have pirated before, but only for a game that I had bought already for the consoles but felt that I was entitled to mod support for it. So I got it from a friend for the PC.

But I would never pirate an indie game. With their smaller, niche markets, every dollar actually counts. Sure, they count for EA and 2K, but 100,000′s of mainstream consumers lured by payola or by the marketing hype will buy the game anyways, DRM or not.

I simply do not understand where this thought of entitlement to things came from…

I know exactly where it comes from but this is definitely not the place to bring up that particular discussion.

Well put. I use the Demo-DRM-Availability trifecta to decide how much sympathy I should have towards anyone pirating a game. The price doesn’t enter into this, as a company has a right to ask whatever they want for it. It’s theirs, after all.

Depths of Peril has a demo, lacks DRM, and is available as a digital download everywhere, so I can have no sympathy for pirates there.

You can’t call it theft when it’s not something worth paying for.
Yes you can.

If it’s something not worth paying for, don’t get it. You don’t get to steal something just because it’s not worth paying for. Your only options are to pay for it, steal it, or not have it. Anything else is semantics, usually trying to justify option #2.

Blizzardwolf
“You can’t call it theft when it’s not something worth paying for.”

Yes you can because it is theft. Someone else owns that property and you took it. That is theft no matter how you try to justify it. If I think Ford makes a peice of junk car does that mean I get to steal it?

“And as deplorable as some people may find piracy, the vast majority will see it just like that, a better product for less money.”

I like how you keep saying less money. Be honest, it’s NO money because you stole it.

“I don’t care if it’s a 1 BR condo, owning is always better than renting and that is not likely to change.”

No, no it’s not. I bought a manufactured home. I took out a loan to get it. I lived in it for 7 years. I moved. I can’t sell it for what I owe on it. I finally found someone to take over the payments on it, but my parents actually took out a loan to make a down payment, which isn’t covered. So I have sold the house, and still owe money. If I’d been renting, I’d have come out equivalent, but wouldn’t have the down payment, and I wouldn’t have paid property taxes, and I wouldn’t have paid upkeep for things that the lease company would have done.

It’s usually worth it. And it’s “the american dream” apparently. I’m really thinking that I’d rather lease for the next several at the least (I’m in a rental house now).

@blizzardwolf:

*boggle*

A few points:

I like how installing and using Steam is a complex and difficult activity, given where you included it, but pirating games is an afternoon’s work that helps you forever. Because every pirate uses the same setup, and Steam is *ungodly* hard to use. I mean, click, download, wait, click to play. Who on earth can handle that?

And patching – um, I’m pretty sure getting a legit patch for a legal game is a bit easier than locating a new crack for a new patch. Especially for the majority of people who aren’t enmeshed in pirating games.

The suggestion that if you buy the game, you get moronic support, but if you pirate it, you get great support is also a complete non argument. If you buy the game, you get the same support the pirate does, plus some. It’s not like you go to a community forum and see posts like “I’m sorry – we can’t help you with legit copies, only pirated ones.” If you’re talking specifically install, perhaps, but that’s about it.

“In essence, they can’t sue everyone.”

So it’s okay to do something, as long as enough other people are. Ah. I’m not gonna pull a Godwin on you, but seriously – can you really buy in to an argument like that? You’re admitting it’s wrong, but saying you’re ignoring that, because you probably won’t get caught.

“But why should customers pay money for an inferior product with inferior service …. a superior product with better service and treatment, and for less money?”

So that more games get made? I don’t know if you really understand this, but people have to buy a game to get more games made. You’re basically assuming that other people will buy enough to fund you getting another game. You are leeching off legit people. You don’t find that any way distasteful or wrong?

And then there’s the classic piracy argument:

“You can’t call it theft when it’s not something worth paying for. And as deplorable as some people may find piracy, the vast majority will see it just like that, a better product for less money. And there’s no reason not to … and there should be no shame in punishing these companies for their mistakes by following it.”

Yes. Yes you can. It’s theft. It’s a product that should require you to pay for it both by law and by custom, and you aren’t. It’s theft. And to suggest that some how your pirating the game will show a company how to make a game? Seriously? These are the same people that say “Not buying a game won’t make a statement to the company, they won’t notice.”

“Of course this argument only applies to major game companies. Indie developers should have our support and backing, and there is no excuse except abject greed and laziness for pirating from them.”

Because the people that work for major game companies are somehow worse people than indie designers? They are undeserving of money?

The argument is “Well, those people will get paid anyway.”

Only until the company decides that making games is not profitable, because no one buys them, and starts laying people off.

Everyone that works for a large company is just as human as an indie developer. Your impact may be less obvious, and less proportionally painful, but it’s still there. Big companies go out of business, and lay people off.

AND big companies, in a lot of ways, are the way they are (focused on huge games that bring huge profits, rather than marginal niche games) BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE MADE IT NOT PROFITABLE TO BE ANYTHING ELSE!

Why is EA Games the way it is? Why do they make Madden every year? Because if they go with other things, they don’t make money. They have no other choice. And they are just as strident in their “Pirates made me do it” arguments are you are in your “The Man made me do it.”

But despite all this, the pirates won’t care.

It makes me amazingly sad to think, even for a minute, “Maybe the RIAA would be the best thing that could happen to video games.”

@Kris:It is not stealing and it is not theft. It is copyright infringement. They are not the same thing in reality nor are the treated the same under the law in any country.

If you take my fire by lighting a candle from my fire without my permission, what have I been denied*? You have denied me compensation for all the work I put into building the fire, but it is not theft.

*And YES, denying someone else property is the important part of theft, not the permission aspect. And yes, if you do something against the reasonable wishes of another person just because you can that does not make you a thief. That makes you a douchebag.

“This piece of hyperbole is been cut apart about a thousand times.”

By pirates whose moral compass is hardly the barometer we should measuring by.

“Pirate doesn’t take anything, he makes a copy of it without compensating the owner. It’s not theft, more like… unauthorized usage or something. The pirate with no regrets would be absolutely enraged if some punk took his car for a joyride without his permission, even if the deed was done at night when he didn’t need it, and the car was returned at pristine condition, ensuring that nobody lost anything. He’d hardly be as mad and hurt as if the punk had actually stolen his car, though.”

So if the person who took is car for a joyride was caught he wouldn’t be charged with theft? Interesting theory.

“I suppose it’s better at trumpeting one’s ethical superiority compared to the unwashed masses, though, which is really the national sport at West these days.”

I suppose when you are the one commiting the unethical acts having them pointed out to you so you realize the negative impact of those acts on others would be considered trumpeting.

I also like the attempt to turn this into a west vs east matter – did your original argument dry up?

“Anyway, sure, don’t rip off the indie devs. I’ve done it sometimes, though only in cases where they can’t be ordered without credit card (not that easy to get around here). If you want to think I’m a bad person for acquiring an illegitimate copy of something I can’t get without considerable load of extra trouble, it’s fine with me. Enjoy the thrill.”

Why not mail a cheque to them after acquiring the pirated copy? Right, because its only a rationalization to make you feel better about your theft.

It’s like blaming the drunks for creating Al Capone.

It doesn’t really matter if you stick it to “the man” or “that guy over there with red hair.” It’s still douchebag behavior but it also should be expected. Piracy is the natural unlawful behavior that emerges from the flawed system, like rumrunners if you outlaw booze. The business model of packaging software in a cardboard box and selling it on a shelf like cereal is flawed. People are going to open it up and tell each other the secret decoder ring password. Fix the system and piracy will also be fixed.

The music industry bemoaned the closing mall music store while abdicating market power to Walmart. Walmart quickly became the industry’s biggest revenue stream. The music industry bemoaned the internet and kicked and screamed as they railed against the machine. Then comes iTunes. iTunes is now the biggest music retailer and dictates terms to the music industry. Why? Because the music industry was incompetent and refused to change to the times. iTunes saved the music industry because they were too stupid to save themselves.

Now PC gaming is dying. Shamus is right in that it seems to be more of ashame to see the indie developer work harder and get less for it. It’s even sadder when people kick them while their down. But it doesn’t matter if they are the biggest producer of buggywhips or the small shop that makes artistic buggywhips that can only be made by a true craftsman… I still want to yell at them you are trying to sell freaking BUGGYWHIPS! SMARTEN UP and make something people WANT before you bankrupt yourself! It’s really hard to feel sorry for stupid people, neither individuals nor groups.

If game developers came up with a new WORKING business model for PC games we’d all be happier. Blizzard figured out a new way. Indies can too, or they will die the capitalist market death of the buggywhip makers.

I didn’t post in one of the earlier piracy posts here, for some reason.

We all know that digital content can be copied indefinitely. And this is the most obvious point. If we had he ability to copy physical objects, would it not be allowed to do so? Would it not be our duty to make sure everyone could get everything they needed?

But obviously, intellectual property is not the same as regular property. Should it be treated as such? Should it ony be so in some points? Should it be possible to “own” it at all? To me, the ability to “own” a piece of text or music has always seemed strange.

I am thinking, that maybe the age of making money off of inellectual property by means of sold copies is over.

Now does this make it less wrong to pirate? I don’t know, it is still, no matter what, still wrong by law. However should you break a law you consider wrong? In some cases it is right to do so, in this, I don’t think that is the best solution.

The best thing to do is probably to either get into politics or create something yourself and do things differently.

And I can promise you here, on the internet, that I am going to buy the music I’ve downloaded.

I am familiar with most of the justifications of piracy. To my shame, I used some of them when I was younger.

There is one question I would ask those who would defend piracy, a question which I personally have never seen a piracy defender dare face. Do you want to accept the consequences of everyone else accepting your justifications?

Because, you see, a dedicated pirate relies on the existence of people who reject piracy. Making games takes money. For game companies to make money they have to sell games.

If the piracy justifications are universally accepted and taken to their logical conclusion, no one will buy games any more. Initially they won’t buy games because they have embraced piracy, but shortly they won’t buy games because no one makes them any more.

Frankly, if you can’t answer this to my satisfaction I will conclude that you don’t really want people to embrace your “moral” position, but you just hope you’ll get people to shut up and leave you alone.

I’d never pirate an indie game for the same reason I’d never burn or download an unsigned band’s demo or self-released album without their permission. It just feels WRONG, like you’re ripping off a guy you could look in the face rather than a stereotypically evil (or genuinely evil in some cases) corporation.

Krellen, there is a difference, you are not a thief. Legally, theft and copyright infringement are two different things. Now, you may morally equate the two, but in every since that matters legally, copyright infringement is not theft. The idea of intellectual property is a legal fiction invented with the intent of giving incentives to creators to create. Since IP is a legal fiction, we must use legal definitions when discussing it.

I really don’t care if you want to hear the fancy tags I put on it, but expect me to not listen to your arguments when you don’t even seem to understand the legal implications and insist on calling it something it isn’t.

What’s the copyright period at now – 90+ years, if I recall correctly?

The reason I ask – in the local Electronics Boutique store in Perth (Western Australia), they still have The Sims 2 (a 5 year old game) selling for its original price, and they even still sell the Starcraft Gold Edition and Warcraft Battle Chest at their original prices – indeed, they’re on the main shelves, not stuffed away in the “old games” section (unlike many more recent titles).

Now, I’m not saying that games that are older than 5 years old should be free. But I think a legitimate question to ask is how long, morally speaking, should the company expect to still be paid the same amount for no additional work? Patents last – what, about 11 years? Why is art so much more intrinsically valuable than science?

Piracy is wrong. There’s no real debate about that. But painting pirates as the black hats and the beleaguered game industry as the suffering victims is not telling anywhere near the whole story – that game industry is ruthlessly exploiting the less technically sophisticated portion of its audience.

I think this issue has a lot more grey in it than many people are suggesting.