Timely Game of Thrones Griping 5: An Analysis of the Daily Caloric Requirements of Dothraki Cavalry

By Bob Case Posted Monday Aug 14, 2017

Filed under: Game of Thrones 185 comments

This series analyzes the show, but sometimes references the books as well. If you read it, expect spoilers for both.

I’ve finished moving! Our long national nightmare is over. This episode picks up right after the last one left off, with Jaime and Bronn somewhere outside King’s Landing.

It's a good thing none of the Dothraki took a casual look around after the battle, or they might have noticed the commander of the enemy army sitting on a nearby shore in plain view.
It's a good thing none of the Dothraki took a casual look around after the battle, or they might have noticed the commander of the enemy army sitting on a nearby shore in plain view.

It’s the aftermath of the battle between the Lannister and Targaryen/Dothraki armies. Jaime and Bronn have managed to swim downstreamApparently they can both hold their breath longer than Guybrush Threepwood. and escape. Jaime is, understandably, a little pessimistic at this point about the chances of a Lannister victory in this war. But hey, at least he’s alive. Now it’s time for the big-ticket Dragon scene, where we can ask an important question about Queen Daenerys:

Is Daenerys Targaryen Still Meant to be a Sympathetic Character?

Because if you showed someone this episode as their first ever exposure to Game of Thrones, that person would probably assume that Dany is meant to be the villain of the show. And even those of us who have been watching since the beginning could be forgiven a bit of confusion. Because the show takes every opportunity to sing her praises – Missandei gushes about how Daenerys is the “Queen we chose,” Jon tells Davos that she has a “good heart,” and Varys monologues at length about how she’s best choice for Westeros.

But her actions so far have been the actions of a tyrant. When justifying her own right to rule, she’s referenced her birthright and nothing else. Neither she nor any of her advisers have even briefly mentioned any concrete way in which she’d be an improvement for the common people of Westeros. And upon meeting another Westerosi ruler (Jon), she wasted no time in making a captive of him and demanding he bend the knee.

Her speech to the defeated Lannister troops sums this problem up nicely. First, she says “All I want to destroy is the wheel that has rolled over rich and poor to the benefit of no one but the Cersei Lannisters of the world.” Aha! A reference to her “break the wheel” speech. A populist angle, a reformist angle. Perhaps she can offer something that other monarchs haven’t? A more egalitarian approach, maybe? But no, the very next thing she says is “I offer you a choice: bend the knee and join me – together, we will leave the world a better place than we found it. Or refuse, and die.”

“Break the wheel” and “bend the knee or die” are not compatible. One promises freedom from the iron machinery of feudalism, the other is the choice given to a slave. A bit ironic from the supposed breaker of chains – just to drive it home, there are two separate references to “chains” in this scene’s dialogue.

Foreground: two charred corpses. Background: The common people of Westeros, living in a better world thanks to the enlightened rule of Queen Daenerys.
Foreground: two charred corpses. Background: The common people of Westeros, living in a better world thanks to the enlightened rule of Queen Daenerys.

Note that this is not an example of a morally “grey” character. This is an example of a morally self-contradictory character. This is an example of a character who actions say one thing, but whose in-universe description by other characters says something completely different. It’s almost as if the showrunners want us to root for her, but also think that it’s totally cool and badass when she has her dragons burn people alive, and they don’t know or care how to reconcile these two conflicting goals.

That’s what it seems like. But maybe it’s something more? Tyrion and Varys have a bit of a heart-to-heart afterwards, as neither of them has failed to notice how often their wonderful, caring young Queen has to be successfully or unsuccessfully talked out of burning small or large groups of people to death. I should note that this episode was written by Dave Hill, who writes dialogue much better than Benioff and Weiss do.

This is a clever bit of staging, with the two characters dwarfed by the set like this. This conversation wouldn't have had the same vibe if it had taken place in, say, the map room.
This is a clever bit of staging, with the two characters dwarfed by the set like this. This conversation wouldn't have had the same vibe if it had taken place in, say, the map room.

It’s possible that this is leading somewhere. Perhaps they could be setting a real, interesting conflict between Daenerys’ stated ideals and her impulsive, brutal actions. Characters have mentioned several times the possibility of her making Westeros a “better place” or some similar phrase – perhaps we’ll get some practical details about what exactly that would entail?

Maybe if I still trusted this show I could believe that. But I suspect that Daenerys’ supposed superiority over the typical Westerosi ruler is going to continue to be an informed quality rather than one demonstrated by her actions. I guess we’ll find out. In the meantime, there are other important questions to be answered, like:

In the Show, Do People Need to Eat Food to Live, or Not?

You might think that the answer is obviously “yes,” since people need to eat food to live in real life, so presumably the same is true in Game of Thrones. But now I’m not so sure. Up until now, when it came to questions like “what is your giant army going to eat,” the show hasn’t really bothered with them. I didn’t particularly like that, but at least it was consistent.

But lately, the writers have been foregrounding logistical issues in a way they haven’t before. Last episode Dany complained that she wouldn’t be able to feed her army without the food from the Reach. Then, the Lannister army took “all” (maybe not all all, but at the very least a lot) of the food from that same Reach and loaded it onto wagons, with Bronn dispatched make sure the local farmers gave up everything. Then, we specifically learned that the wagons with the gold made it into the city but the wagons with the food didn’t.

Then, we saw Daenerys and Drogon set fire to a whole lot of wagons. Many, including myself, wondered “weren’t those wagons full of food? The same type of food that people need to eat to live?” And this episode, Jaime reveals that Drogon burned a thousand of them. A thousand seems like a lot. We the viewers are given no clue as to whether a thousand wagons worth of food being burned is important or not.

And don’t you dare tell me I’m nitpicking. Not this time. It was Dany herself, just last episode, that brought up the issue of her Dothraki army, which has thousands of both people and horses, needing to eat. It was Tyrion himself who came up with the plan of starving King’s Landing into submission.In Tyrion’s ethical calculus, starving a city is preferable to attacking that city’s castle with dragons. The show has been trying to convince us that food supplies are important, then it burns a thousand wagons full of food and no one even comments or speculates on what the consequences of this will be.

Again, maybe this will all be justified somehow later, but I doubt it.

Bran’s Ability to Know Everything Finally Comes in Handy

Bran wargs into a flock of ravens and uses them to scout the Army of the Dead.

That's a lot of dead people, all right.
That's a lot of dead people, all right.

They are… somewhere north of the Wall. They’re somewhere north of the wall, marching south, just like they’ve been doing this whole time. But for some reason, now it’s become urgent enough to send ravens all over the world, including to Dragonstone, King’s Landing, and the Citadel.

But nevermind that, because it’s time for Arya and Sansa to have a conflict. Let me see if I can explain this conflict in a way that doesn’t make it sound ridiculous. The northern lords (and Lord Royce) are griping that Jon’s been gone too long. They seem to raise the possibility of Sansa being put in charge permanently. Good lord. If you’re politically ambitious, Winterfell is the place to be, because this lot will coronate a new monarch at the drop of a hat. Sansa better not come down with the flu or anything, or by the time she gets better we’ll all be slaving away in the salt mines under the iron fist of King Hot Pie.

Sansa shuts this down, because it’s ridiculous, but Arya seems to think she didn’t shut it down hard enough or something. Sansa tries to explain. “Glover has five hundred men, Royce has two thousand, offend them and Jon loses his army.” But Arya isn’t buying it. “Not if they lose their heads first.” So apparently Arya thinks that “the King in the North should stay in the North” is an insult worthy of beheading? And if you behead these two, their armies will just be fine with it? The other lords won’t object to their interim ruler nicking off the heads of their peers over politely worded objections?

Then Arya essentially implies that Sansa doesn’t want Jon to come back. I guess. “You’re thinking about it right now,” she says. You know how if I tell you not to think about elephants, the first thing you think of is elephants? Arya’s rather cleverly pulled this trick to get Sansa to think of the thing that Arya doesn’t want her to think about. Checkmate!

This all seems too nakedly contrived for me to even have an opinion on who’s right or wrong.I mean, on the merits, Arya is completely wrong, and acting childish to boot. But this won’t even be the first time this episode that an idea that’s terrible on the merits is taken seriously. The writers want an Arya vs. Sansa conflict, so we’re going to get one, regardless of whether it makes any sense or not. This is only confirmed when Littlefinger steers Arya into finding some message in his room.

Your lockpicking skill has increased to 71.
Your lockpicking skill has increased to 71.

The message has been signed by Sansa. I have no idea what it could be. Who would she be writing to in secret? And why would Littlefinger have it? The Maester mentions that it’s an old message, so maybe it’s from a previous season. I guess we’ll find out. Littlefinger seems to want Arya and Sansa pitted against each other. Why? Because he’s Littlefinger, and this is the sort of thing he does when he’s not lurking in his designated lurking spot.

Jon’s Stupid Plan

In order to prove to Cersei that the Army of the Dead is real, we’ll need a captured wight. The newly returned Ser Jorah volunteers to get one, but Jon insists that he go along too. “I’m the only one here who’s fought them,” he says. But he’s not the only one who’s fought them period. Tormund has. So have the numerous Wildling and Night’s Watch survivors that made it safely away from the battle at Hardhome. But never mind them, let’s just send the King in the North on a dangerous commando mission when there are plenty of other people who could go.

He might as well have just said 'I'm the protagonist'.
He might as well have just said 'I'm the protagonist'.

So all Jon has to do is travel from Dragonstone, to Eastwatch, and then north of the wall, capture a wight, and then travel back south to King’s Landing to show it to Cersei, and then back to the north, in less time than it takes for the Army of the Dead to reach the wall. On this show? Perfectly feasible. This also presents an opportunity for Dany to give both Jon and Jorah lots of worried looks. I would feel bad for her if I hadn’t just watched her burn two people alive without blinking earlier this episode.

Finally, Jon makes his way north, where he hooks up with the Hound and Company. Everyone recognizes everyone else, and lots of them have bad blood with each other. Nonetheless, Jon reminds them that they’re all on the same side, because they’re all “still breathing.” As rousing calls for action go, it’s not exactly the St. Crispin’s Day speech, but I actually liked that one line in particular. It reminds me of the books, where Jon frequently has to remind people of the stakes of the conflict they’re in – literally the living vs. the dead – using similar arguments.

And just like that, they’re off wight-hunting. By the way, Davos collected Gendry along the way, his lats toned and supple from three seasons of rowing.

Shouldn't they at least bring horses?
Shouldn't they at least bring horses?

And that’s pretty much it. I skipped the Citadel and most of King’s Landing because practically nothing happened. We learned that Cersei is pregnant, and plans to acknowledge Jaime publicly as the father, because if she could blow up the Sept and half the government without anyone caring, who’s gonna object to a little bit of brother-sister incest?

Stuff That Should Never Have Made It Past an Editor

I figured I would give this topic it’s own mini-section to avoid derailing the review proper too often.

  • When Randyll Tarly says that he already has a Queen, Tyrion responds: “My sister. She wasn’t your queen until recently though, was she? Until she murdered your rightful Queen, and destroyed House Tyrell for all time.” The “rightful Queen” he refers to could only have been Lady Olenna, right? But she’s not a Queen, is she? I mean, come on. This is a feudal system of government. The distinction between “Queen” and “not Queen” is important.
  • “I thought Arya was dead,” Jon says upon receiving the message from Winterfell. “I thought Bran was dead.” Okay, Bran I guess I can give him. In fact, Jon knew he was alive, but Bran was north of the wall, which is a dangerous place, and hadn’t been heard from in a while. So maybe Jon assumed the worst. But Arya? Arya was last seen by Brienne, who told Sansa she was in the company of “a man”It’s not clear if Brienne actually didn’t recognize the Hound, or if she was concealing his identity for some reason.. Did Sansa not tell Jon about that? Unlike with Bran, there was no particular reason for Jon to think Arya was dead.
  • This isn’t specific to only this episode, and I know people get tired of travel time complaints, but this one is too egregious for me not to mention. Below is a map of Westeros. The tiny red arrow at the very top (look carefully) is the amount of distance covered by the Army of the Dead – which, remember, doesn’t need to eat or sleep – over the course of nearly two seasons.

Random Observations

  • Davos “smuggles” Tyrion into King’s Landing – by rowing onto a beach in plain view in broad daylight. Damn, smuggling must be an easy trade in those parts. And did they really travel from Dragonstone to King’s Landing in a rowboat? These Westerosi really take their back workouts seriously.
  • “Never betray me again,” says Cersei at the end of her scene with Jaime. I think I must have missed something? Did he betray her? Was she referring to his meeting with Tyrion? Because he was tricked into that meeting, and Cersei knows that – and even if he hadn’t been, I don’t get how that would be a betrayal. I mean, he told her about the meeting right after it happened. That line just confused me.
  • Gilly, while reading the accounts of Septon Whatshisname’s bowel movements, notices that he annulled the marriage of one “Prince Raggar.” I assume she’s mispronouncing “Rhaegar” here. Pretty big deal if so, though Sam doesn’t seem to notice and decides instead to loot the restricted section of the library and then skedaddle. I don’t actually know if this will come up later or not. In the show, Jon’s parentage doesn’t really matter that much anymore. I almost think it would just be a distraction at this point.
  • I know not everyone is interested in historically accurate weapons and so forth. But geez, Gendry’s hammer is comically overlarge. And why is he back on this show, anyway? To hit things with a big hammer? They spent a lot of screen time on him. Were they getting sick of the rowboat jokes?

Well, that’ll do it for this episode. I’ll see you all next week.

 

 

Footnotes:

[1] Apparently they can both hold their breath longer than Guybrush Threepwood.

[2] In Tyrion’s ethical calculus, starving a city is preferable to attacking that city’s castle with dragons.

[3] I mean, on the merits, Arya is completely wrong, and acting childish to boot. But this won’t even be the first time this episode that an idea that’s terrible on the merits is taken seriously.

[4] It’s not clear if Brienne actually didn’t recognize the Hound, or if she was concealing his identity for some reason.



From The Archives:
 

185 thoughts on “Timely Game of Thrones Griping 5: An Analysis of the Daily Caloric Requirements of Dothraki Cavalry

  1. LB says:

    Little correction: “she murdered your rightful Queen” was referring to Margaery (Natalie Dormer) who Cersei blew up with the Great Sept.

    1. Joshua says:

      I haven’t watched the show since the 3rd season, and that would have been my assumption. That’s one of the big themes with Cersei always bitching to herself and others about Queen Margaery. Cersei is the Queen Regent, and takes umbrage at Margaery being called (legitimately) the actual Queen.

    2. Grey Cap says:

      Absolutely. However, it would have been helpful to help us poor schmucks out somehow (maybe “murdered your rightful queen in the Great Sept and destroyed her House”), since for the audience it’s been a while since last season and Olenna is fresh in the mind. My first thought when I heard that line was ‘hey, Olenna wasn’t queen!’.

    3. Steve C says:

      Tyrion also said that line right in front of Daenerys of House Targaryen, First of her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, … blah blah blah.

      Referring to Margaery the “Rightful Queen” undermines their only claim to Westeros- that Robert was never a king and nobody deriving their authority from that is legitimate. Definitely not something that should have gotten past an editor. So much shit this episode should not have gotten past an editor. Such a shame. I really enjoyed last episode. This one… blah. Blah I say!

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        He didnt refer to her as the rightful queen,but as to someone randyll considered his queen not too long ago,before he started seeing cersei as his queen.

        1. Steve C says:

          Tyrion absolutely used the term “your rightful queen” when referring to someone other than Daenerys.

          I checked before my original comment, and I checked again before replying to you.

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            Yes,your rightful queen.Key wording here is your.

          2. name says:

            You are nitpicking. It’s clear what he meant.

  2. Geebs says:

    To be fair to the show, we don’t actually know that the Army of the Dead are spending all of this time marching south, since there aren’t any directional cues. All we know is that they’re marching towards the camera.

    They might just be popping down to the shops and back.

    1. Da Mage says:

      I now have this image of the dead walking back and forth in a blizzard while the Whitewalkers are completely confused at which way is south.

      1. Syal says:

        They’re all going to end up at Santa’s workshop and have a long dickering over who was in charge of the map.

        Game of Thrones; the spiritual sequel to Wagons East.

    2. KarmaTheAlligator says:

      You mean they might have been going in circles all this time?

      1. King Marth says:

        They don’t need to eat or sleep. A random walk will get them to where they’re going eventually (at the speed of plot!), and none of them need to learn how to navigate, or walk in a straight line.

        1. newplan says:

          Who knew Ito’s lemma would be necessary to understand the events in Game of Thrones.

          1. Droid says:

            That is some high-level maths pun right here.

          2. Tizzy says:

            The important point is that if the dead could dig up and down as well, then we’d never be sure they would eventually reach their target.

    3. Erik says:

      I guess we can explain this away by saying that they’re waiting for the sea to freeze over so they can walk past the wall (which is totally gonna happen) and in the meantime they’re walking from settlement to settlement bolstering their army where they can.

      1. guy says:

        You know, that or something to that effect would fit and explain their curiously slow progress in the books too. Maybe it’s not distance or resistance that’s delaying them, when at least some of them were in range to destroy a Ranger patrol and send its Wights to the wall at the start of the series. Maybe they can’t actually leave the cold, at least not for long, so they’ve been generating a super-winter and are following behind the primary wave of cold.

        1. Ness says:

          That makes a lot more sense than what will actually happen I’m sure.

    4. Thecheerfulpessimist says:

      Sure enough, this complaint is starting to pop up in other places, too: http://imgur.com/gallery/Dr2j1

  3. Mortuss says:

    “rightful Queen” was probably reference to Margaery.

    Also you can read the contents of the letter Arya found here
    Reddit
    It is the letter Sansa was forced to write to Robb, telling him to surrender.

    “Prince Raggar” should be a thing, since it makes Jon not a bastard, but rightful heir to the throne. But Show Dany probably would not care about that..

  4. Nick says:

    Due to my totally legal and legit way of watching the show allowing me to pause, the letter Sansa wrote is the one Cersei got here to write to Robb and Cat way back when, affirming her loyalty to Joffrey and asking them to stand down.

    So yeah, this whole thing is ridiculous

    1. name says:

      Not entirely ridiculous. Sure, the contents of the letter (and the context in which they were written) could have Arya perceive Sansa as a coward. Definitely not enough to convince her that she is necessarily working against Jon. That would indeed be ridiculous. A big however though – Littlefinger made a whole performance of it in front of Arya to make her think that he is hiding the letter on Sansa’s behest. If he were doing that for real, that doesn’t exactly paint Sansa in good light.

      And while it doesn’t make sense for him not to destroy the letter outright, he’s counting on Arya overlooking that. Which is plausible, since Arya is not terribly wise and already established as an extremely headstrong girl on a mission.

    2. Ness says:

      You can pause HBO Now. Which I assume is what you were using. Since it was legal and legit, like you said.

  5. ehlijen says:

    Jaime betrayed cersei by giving olenna poison instead of delivering her to torture chamber 23a.

    Jon’s absolutely going to end up riding the second dragon, so him being a targaryan will be important. The third dragon will be killed and end up either a wight zombie or a tyburn golem.

    The letter arya finds is the one sansa was forced to write denouncing her father, while she was joeffrey’s betrothed/hostage.

    1. Olivier FAURE says:

      Uh…

      I just realized, this series has plague zombies (stone men), necromancy zombies (wights) AND golem zombies (Robert Strong).

        1. Dev Null says:

          Jesus Zombie.

          They should have brought the elder brother back too; then they could have Rob Zombie.

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            Thats one rotten pun.

            1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

              That was just a no-brainer.

    2. sean says:

      Wow! We’re you totally right on! Dany down to 2 dragons and the other a zombie. Will we see Jon rescue Dany for a change ,on a dragon in the ultimate battle? So she can swoon in his arms and marry him so they rule together in a modern English style parliamentary monarchy?

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Nah,she will find out jon is her nephew,rescue him once more from his idiocy,then bone him in the true targaryen fashion.

  6. Wraith says:

    There’s that scene from season 3 with Theon and Ramsay that I now despise, with that line “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

    There’s a similar pairing now, but they’re separate. “Enough with the clever plans” combined with the scene where all of Davos’s clever antics fail and Gendry has to murder the guards with a hammer pretty much embodies this season in a nutshell, and how the show treats its themes.

  7. Tapkoh says:

    It’s not entirely clear, but I assume Jaime’s “betrayal” was talking to Tyrion and letting him leave instead of killing or capturing him. After all, Cersei states Bronn betrayed Jaime for doing (at the most basic level) what Jaime just did: making plans with Tyrion.

  8. JDMM says:

    So a thing in Game of Thrones has always been the wastes of human resources (war of the five kings when the dead march) however this time they’ve literalized that by having all the information in the world apparently be in the citadel archives only nobody can access it because apparently the citadel is run by a modern bureaucracy and this strikes me as just so absurd.

    You mean to tell me Rhaegar and Lyanna’s relationship was formalized but was then just lost in documentation?
    You mean to tell me the Children of the Forest from 10,000 years ago gave their books to maesters?
    It just feels so uneven like I switched over to something by Mike Judge while watching Lord of the Rings

    1. BlueHorus says:

      You mean to tell me Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was formalized but was then just lost in documentation?

      This. Fucking THIS.

      It’s a quick, lazy way to let Jon know about his parentage. Sam will probably tell Jon on the way to his stupid commando mission.
      It’s just a pity that the existence of such a document does this to what is actually a carefully-plotted, clever and subtle twist.

      I mean, it’s not like Jon had a FUCKING SEER BROTHER/COUSIN WHO COULD HAVE TOLD HIM ABOUT IT THE INSTANT THEY MET AGAIN.

      WHO RISKED BEING KILLED BY ZOMBIES IN A BARREN FOREST JUST TO FIND THIS INFORMATION OUT.

      1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

        Perhaps Bran will tell Jon and then Sam’s document will be proof to people who don’t believe in such things as 3 Eyed Ravens?

      2. Robert Conley says:

        The information is incomplete. All the book will say that Rhaegar got his marriage annulled and married Lyanna Stark. Bran knows that the Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but it really just his word. The document show that Lyanna was legitimately married (although the Dornish won’t be happy). Now all is needed is Howland Reed to testify that Jon was the baby that Eddard Stark took into care after Lyanna’s death.

        Does nothing to reduce Bran’s contribution to solving the mystery of R+L=J.

        1. BlueHorus says:

          So why hasn’t Bran told Jon yet? Is he really just that flaky?

          But. This depends on something I don’t know. Can someone who knows the books better tell me if Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark, or simply had an affair with her?

          If it’s marriage, then what’s in the book Gilly finds is irrelevant, and common knowledge. So why did the the show bother telling us? Foreshadowing?

          If it’s an affair, then the only record of the Crown prince of the Kingdoms annulling his marriage would NOT be in a dusty library, unnoticed. That kind of thing would be a massive deal.

          1. Falcon02 says:

            My thought process is Jon and Bran haven’t actually seen each other face to face yet (Bran arrived after Jon left, and Jon went straight to Zombie hunting without passing through Winterfell). And “Hey you’re actually the son of Rhaegar Targarean” might be a bit too risky to send by Raven.

            I haven’t read the books myself, but my understanding is public knowledge is that Lyanna was simply kidnapped and raped. Gilly did say the ceremony appeared to be “secret.” Though why any related documentation would have been lost, destroyed, or not even produced, the only semi-reasonable reason I can think of is Rhaegar determined they would lose and tried to destroy the evidence to protect Jon… of course that’s only my head-canon.

          2. Joshua says:

            The R+L=J thing has not been confirmed in the books yet, just heavily implied.

            1. evileeyore says:

              The show clearly stopped caring about the books back in season 4.

              1. Joshua says:

                I was responding to BlueHorus, since he asked.

            2. Daemian Lucifer says:

              Unofficially it has been confirmed by Martin though,long before it became official on the show.

              1. Commonpleb says:

                Source?

                1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Not sure if I can find it,because I read it years ago.But there is a rumor(confirmed?I cant say)that one of the questions martin asked when they pitched the show to him was “who is jons mother”,which they guessed correctly.

          3. Daemian Lucifer says:

            So why hasn't Bran told Jon yet?

            He said that he needs to see jon face to face.And seeing how just this episode we saw varys read a sealed letter meant for jon,it would be unwise for him to send such a thing via raven.

          4. Robert Conley says:

            It not common knowledge. Rhaegar got Lyanna which caused Rickard and his son Brandon Stark to go to King’s Landing only to be burned by the Mad King Aerys. In the aftermath Robert’s Rebellion ignited and all hell broke loose.

            The most likely sequence of events is that Rhaegar took Lyanna to the Tower of Joy, the marriage to Ellia of Dorne was annulled and Rhaeger married Lyanna. During this time the events at King’s Landing plays out. Then Robert’s Rebellion. Rhaeger leaves some Kingsguard to guard the Tower of Joy and heads off to lead his father’s forces. Eventually dying at the Battle of the Trident. Then Lyanna dies in Eddard’s arms.

            Considering what happened is not surprising it all got lost in the shuffle. And remember Eddard and Howland Reed participated in covering up what happened at the Tower of Joy.

            1. BlueHorus says:

              Oh, okay. I guess it could all have happened so fast that everyone who it was relevant to (Elia, Rhaegar, Lyanna) was dead before word got out (or the ink was dry).

              And now Robert’s king, it’s his bloodline that matters. So this becomes irrelevant, in a way…particuarly if the Lord of Winterfell hides it.

    2. tremor3258 says:

      Also if there was documentation, why leave Jon clearly suffering under the weight of his illegitimacy even if it couldn’t be publicly acknowledged?

      1. Mike S. says:

        Ned apparently thought that anyone at all knowing was too dangerous given that Robert would murder Jon if he knew. Or he was sworn to absolute silence and bound by that Stark honor. Otherwise he’d at least have told Catelyn, and saved Jon a lifetime of disdain by his stepmother.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Given how adamant robert was about killing a teenage girl(at least she is a teen in the books)just because of her lineage,its reasonable to assume that he wouldve asked for jons head if he knew.Ned made the right call.

        2. Olivier Faure says:

          I never really got why Ned would hide it from Cat, except to create more drama. I mean, sure, he swore to keep it a secret, but it’s not like telling his wife would have gone against the spirit of his oath. She could keep a secret.

          (or even tell her something vague like “This is not my child, but I absolutely have to pretend he is, for his sake”)

          1. Droid says:

            For Ned, there was no middle ground. Either he told no-one at all, or he betrayed his sister’s dying wish. He’s a bit one-dimensional in that regard, maybe, but I guess you can take everything to the extreme. This specific one (honor) isn’t even that exotic a thing to become rather … binary about.

          2. Shoeboxjeddy says:

            Some of Cat’s family was killed in that war, she may have had similar feelings to Robert if she knew. Since Ned couldn’t be sure, better safe than sorry where Jon’s life is concerned.

          3. BlueHorus says:

            It’s even possible that he was just came from a sexist society and/or didn’t trust her, at least with this.

            Not everything Catlyn Stark did was all that well-thought out, particuarly where her family was concerned.

          4. Daemian Lucifer says:

            She could keep a secret.

            You mean the same woman who defied his ruling and got tyrion into prison?The same woman who defied robb and let jaime go?She may have been trustworthy 99% of the time,but not always.

          5. Joshua says:

            Obviously, the real reason is for the sake of the plot mystery. However, Catelyn might have caused real problems for Ned if she knew. When Robb legitimizes Jon shortly before his death, Catelyn strongly argues against it not only for her dislike of Jon, but because she believes it will cause a lot of political strife. She knows how Robert would react.

            “How nice, you really didn’t cheat on me. Instead, you have risked all of our lives and the possibility of further war against your own best friend.”

      2. newplan says:

        So Robert doesn’t crush his skull with a giant hammer.

        1. BlueHorus says:

          To clarify: that’s both Jon’s skull and Ned’s at risk of a hammering.

          Robert Baratheon wasn’t really the sharpest, most rational tool in the box to begin with, but when it came to Lyanna Stark, he just wasn’t in control of his actions.

          1. Steve C says:

            Ned would have refused Robert too. Ned refused Robert’s order to assassinate Dany and he didn’t know anything about her. Plus family before honor and all that. Ned may have realized that his sister really did love Rhaegar and not Robert. Robert would have been pissed when faced with that. Likely Robert would have killed Ned to prevent himself from acknowledging he had been rejected.

            1. BlueHorus says:

              It’s implied (in retrospect, by Barristan Selmy) that Robert was more than capable of killing the messenger if he didn’t like what they had to say.

              And if he’d heard that ‘Actually, Lyanna loved Rhaegar over you’, then he might well have done something truly crazy, like try to burn down Winterfell with everyone still in it.

      3. Bubble181 says:

        Since I’m currently rewatchin Season 1: the last time Jon and Ned see each other, Ned literally says “the next time we meet, I will tell you about your mother”. You know, once Jon’s taken the black and is thus out of the running for Kinghood.
        Ned wanted to keep this secret from Jon so that J wouldn’t get any bad ideas about trying to stake his claim and start another civil war.

    3. Blue_Pie_Ninja says:

      People are forgetting this, but the document was along with accounts of one maester’s bowel movements. What better place to hide a secret marriage of important people than a book about that?

  9. Daemian Lucifer says:

    I know not everyone is interested in historically accurate weapons and so forth. But geez, Gendry's hammer is comically overlarge.

    Thats because its a maul.I have no idea how much they were used in actual combat,but those existed.

    The tiny red arrow at the very top (look carefully) is the amount of distance covered by the Army of the Dead ““ which, remember, doesn't need to eat or sleep ““ over the course of nearly two seasons.

    But ok,lets assume that they were scourging the north for all this time and only recently started going towards the wall.Its still really silly when compared to how much everyone else has covered in the meantime.Heck,in this episode alone there was a LOT of traveling.Even with accounting for all the time skips,its still rather silly.

    1. BlueHorus says:

      What I’d like for Bob’s map is a different set of arrows in comparison. Showing how far Euron Greyjoy can travel, just in one episode.

      Or Varys. Or the Unsullied army that attacked Casterly Rock. Or – you could pick so many characters to make this point.

    2. Syal says:

      What people aren’t realizing is that the map of Westeros is actually being shown through one of those funhouse mirrors that makes everyone look short and fat. The North is way bigger than you think and the South is just a shopping mall that everyone lives in.

      1. Studoku says:

        So beyond the wall is Greenland?

    3. Blake says:

      I always assumed they needed more magic winter because reasons.
      Maybe if it’s too warm down there the white walkers magic stops working or something, which is why they’ve been biding their time waiting for winter in the first place.

      1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

        They just really want their margarita’s chilled.
        I mean it’s not like they’re on a deadline, so they might as well enjoy the ride.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          It wouldnt really be the problem if not for the fact that every time we see the army of the dead,they are marching somewhere.

          1. Sleeping Dragon says:

            Now, today, we’re going to do marching up and down the square! That is, unless any of you got anything better to do. Well?! Anyone got anything they’d rather be doing than marching up and down the square?! Yes?!

            1. Droid says:

              *raises hand*

              Long time since we stood menacingly still for a day or two. Maybe we should stand in this here spot for a while and stare at the wall real bad-like!

              1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

                Ooh, and maybe the boss-man can point his sword or something and pretending to shout at us like a warm-blood king. He always likes to make vaguely ominous gestures at the snow after all.

                1. BlueHorus says:

                  You’re also underestimating how stupid zombies can be.

                  What’s to say that just out of shot there isn’t a group of zombies marching in the wrong direction, and a really pissed of White Walker going “Dammit, not again…” as he rides out to head them off?

                  Never mind the ones that fall into potholes, walk into trees, get attacked by scavengers, get stuck in snowdrifts, wander into the sea, trip over each other, etc etc. Some of these poor sods don’t even have heads!

                  1. dank says:

                    I read “fall into plotholes” at first lol

  10. Lazlo says:

    Not just that Gendry’s hammer is comically large in terrible ways (far too long, handle’s too big, pommel’s too small and the head is just whaaaat???), but also, the way he holds it and the way he swings it around makes it extremely obvious that it’s plastic. Or maybe the head’s made out of foamed titanium, because there’d be nothing more fitting than a medieval blacksmith using space-age material to make a weapon more useless.

    1. Olivier Faure says:

      (also even if it were made of foam titanium it would be useless since the thing’s lethality is based on its weight, not its solidity)

  11. Nixorbo says:

    But her actions so far have been the actions of a tyrant.

    “Wit,” Dalinar found himself asking, “am I a tyrant?”

    Wit cocked an eyebrow, and seemed to be looking for a clever quip. A moment later, he discarded the thought. “Yes, Dalinar Kholin,” he said softly, consolingly, as one might speak to a tearful child. “You are.”

    “I do not wish to be.”

    “With all due respect, Brightlord, that is not quite the truth. You seek for power. You take hold, and let go only with great difficulty.”

    Dalinar bowed his head.

    “Do not sorrow,” Wit said. “It is an era for tyrants. I doubt this place is ready for anything more, and a benevolent tyrant is preferable to the disaster of weak rule. Perhaps in another place and time, I'd have denounced you with spit and bile. Here, today, I praise you as what this world needs.”

    1. Droid says:

      Is that from a book? If yes, please tell me which, you might have sold me on it with just this short glimpse of dialogue.

      1. Cinebeast says:

        It sounds like it’s from the Stormlight Archive, an ongoing series by Brandon Sanderson.

        Wow, only two out of a planned ten books exist right now. Ten. The third book comes out this November.

        1. Droid says:

          I knew it sounded familiar, somehow. I outright devoured his Mistborn series. But 2 out of 10 might be a bit early to jump on the hype train for that particular saga (I don’t like reading great series in chunks).

          1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

            So far, he released a book every 3-4 years. Meaning that unless he picks up the pace, this series won’t be finished until 2040 (and that’s an optimistic one).
            Oh, and Sanderson himself is currently in his early forties.

            Honestly, I’m very interested in this series, but there is a serious risk of Auther Existence Failure before he manages to finish it. Or he might simply lose interest, or the inspiration. Kind of like George Martin is struggeling with GoT right now.

            There are good reasons why almost nobody plans to write a massive epic from the get-go :P

            1. 4th Dimension says:

              What you fail to realize is that this is Sanderson you are talking about. The guy is most probably a highly advanced Writer Bot 3500 from the future. He has published new books in that time frame, but that’s only because he has been writing OTHER books between them. So if we discount the burnout, he could probably finish the entire series REAL quick.
              Soooo not too terribly worried about it not finishing.

              Also I think it’s probably not 10 books for one cycle. He’ll probably be breaking it up and having endings in there before doing time skips like he did with Mistborn, which BTW he continued. couple hundred years after the Mistborn finale. A gaslamp western/detective/adventure on Scadrial.

              1. Droid says:

                Also, about that Author Existence Failure, if he’s in his early forties now, that means he’ll be around 65 come 2040. Only around 15-20% of people who live to be 40 die before reaching the age of 65 (that’s actually surprisingly large, but still relatively small).

                1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

                  Point taken.
                  Although that was an optimistic estimation, if we assume that he takes around 4 years per book, he would be well in his seventies by the time this is finished. And goodness forbid that he goes full George RR Martin by the end.

                  Apparently the guy is an authorial machine though, so my estimations were way off anyway :)

              2. TheJungerLudendorff says:

                Hmm, I wasn’t aware of his Write-O-Tron like qualities. Seems like I should keep an eye on this after all.

                1. Duffy says:

                  Sanderson is a machine, he generally releases at least two books a year across multiple series or stand alone and several novellas sprinkled here and there. I used to be impressed by Butcher’s twoish a year streak but he seems to have slowed down, but Sanderson still puts him to shame.

        2. CrushU says:

          It is. I’m reasonably sure it’s from the first book, The Way of Kings, but it might be the second.

          I’m *pretty* sure because I think this question was asked of Wit in the first book because Dalinar needed some steadying on his questionable path. In the second book he’s committed to it, so… Yeah.

          Btw? Dalinar is one of I’d say three ‘main’ characters. It’s a very large book. (Sanderson says that he was tired of being rejected for reasons, so decided to just do the exact opposite of what those people rejecting him were saying to do… ‘Write shorter books’? Screw them, I’m gonna write the longest book EVER, with the most complicated and weird setting I can think of!)

          1. Droid says:

            Gotta admire his attitude, at least. Even though I love his 10000 page books about a fantasy world with “hard magic”, relatable characters making hard choices and hope and empathy triumphing over despair and tyranny…

          2. `Retsam says:

            It’s actually the second book. He’s not acting like a tyrant in the first book, because it’s not really until the end of the first book that he takes power for himself.

  12. BlueHorus says:

    Is Daenerys Targaryen Still Meant to be a Sympathetic Character?

    So back in the first few seasons, (and, yes, the books) we didn’t have good characters and bad ones – at least, not so clearly.
    We had believable characters. With flaws and backstories that explained their actions, and their actions were what drove the plot.
    No one was perfect, no one was completely evil, (maybe Gregor Clegane?) but no-one was perfect either. They were human.
    Ned Stark’s sense of honor got him killed. So did Robb’s. Joffrey Baratheon was an awful, awful person, but you saw the relationship his (supposed) father and (actual) mother had, right? There was an inevitability to the way he turned out.
    And you damn well didn’t need anyone to tell you that Tywin Lannister was ruthless and obsessed with his house’s power over everything else, because every action of his fucking showed that.

    The writers want an Arya vs. Sansa conflict, so we're going to get one, regardless of whether it makes any sense or not.

    …Huh. Replace ‘an Arya vs Sansa conflict’ with so many of the things that have happened in the show recently, and you have a very good explaination of what went wrong in the last few seasons.

    1. Joe Informatico says:

      The books eventually tell us that every Targaeryan is either a benevolent and charitable ruler, or a brutally oppressive tyrant. Dany’s character arc seems to ride the line right between them, while deconstructing both positions: Dany’s “benevolence” causes as many or more problems as it solves, while in other situations being the brutal tyrant is the right move for her. If he ever finishes the series, I assume GRRM will have her ride that line right to the end.

  13. Cinebeast says:

    At this rate I think the show’s setting us up for Dany’s death. Calling it here and now, that will be their big “power move” that “stuns the audience” at the end of this season. There are a couple of scenes in this episode (and the last few) that lead me to think that, but the biggest reason is a moment that Bob didn’t mention in his recap:

    Dany lands her dragon in front of Jon Snow and Jon, instead of backing off or standing still or doing anything reasonable, approaches said dangerous beastie and pets it, and the dragon lets him. Dany is clearly surprised by this, and so is Jon, and the audience is meant to be too, because of the swelling music and all that.

    This is pretty obvious cinematic shorthand for, “Jon Snow will be able to ride and control the dragons.” And why would you foreshadow something like that unless you’re planning to take Daenerys out of the picture?

    1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

      Dany doesn’t have to be dead for Jon to ride a dragon. In fact, if you go with the long expected “Jon and Dany marry and fight all the baddies together” ending sequence, being able to ride dragons together would be the main expression of that idea.

      1. Cinebeast says:

        There’s the whole incest thing to take into account with that idea, but I do prefer it to Dany dying.

        1. Falcon02 says:

          Well, they’re both Targaryen, and we know how they have historically felt about incest… (ie. standard practice)

          1. Studoku says:

            If anything, Aunt and Nephew isn’t incesty enough for them.

    2. Grey Cap says:

      I also feel Jon has been groomed to be more sympathetic. Not sure it’s successful (the man spends too much time looking confused/mildly drugged to be really likeable) but his actions conform to standard protagonist morality a lot better than Dany’s. Could be the authors want a straight happy ending with Dany first crazy, then dead, and with Jon destroying the White Walkers and claiming the throne.

      1. Droid says:

        “looking [too] mildly drugged to be likeable”

        That didn’t stop Viggo Mortensen, or didn’t you like Stoner Aragorn and his pipe?

        1. Blackadder says:

          Viggo’s performance got weaker as the trilogy progressed (an issue which felt particularly acute as his character was supposed to be becoming more legendarily kingly), but I never felt that he did a bad job as Strider – his face managed to convey a certain restrained intensity that offset that stage of Aragorn’s life well (although he didn’t handle the transition as strongly). Kit Harrison’s Jon Snow has been narcoleptically stumbling around for 7 seasons now, without the slightest hint of anything other than the most mediocre of intellects hiding somewhere behind that blank stare, and with only occasional bursts of asinine stubborness to color the role when the plot demands it. How anyone in the North sees him as leadership material is utterly baffling.

          1. evileeyore says:

            Kit Harrison's Jon Snow has been narcoleptically stumbling around for 7 seasons now, without the slightest hint of anything other than the most mediocre of intellects hiding somewhere behind that blank stare, and with only occasional bursts of asinine stubborness to color the role when the plot demands it.

            It’s okay that Jon is kinda stupid. That’s what his Sam is for…

    3. TheJungerLudendorff says:

      Even if they kill Dany off, they can just bring her back to life in the next season.
      I mean, we already have various types of zombies running around, including the Big J. Might as well rehash that whole pointless plot sequence.

  14. Daemian Lucifer says:

    Is Daenerys Targaryen Still Meant to be a Sympathetic Character?

    She is acting like she always has,practically from day one.The only difference is that now there are no conquerers to rape her,thieves to sell her,and cults to kidnap her.But remember how she was towards her enemies earlier:Burning them alive(both with dragons and with normal fire),crucifying them,locking them in vaults,…So if you ever considered her sympathetic,a better question is:Why arent you considering her sympathetic now?

    I mean, on the merits, Arya is completely wrong, and acting childish to boot.

    She is acting bloodthirsty and unhinged like she has been acting practically since ned was beheaded.Why is this a surprise now?

    In order to prove to Cersei that the Army of the Dead is real, we'll need a captured wight. The newly returned Ser Jorah volunteers to get one, but Jon insists that he go along too. “I'm the only one here who's fought them,” he says. But he's not the only one who's fought them period.

    He is the only one who has fought an actual white walker and won*.Plus,he still considers himself a ranger.He never stopped considering himself one.Of course he is going to go.And hey,they do ask the wildlings for help,so you jumped the gun on this one.

    I assume she's mispronouncing “Rhaegar” here. Pretty big deal if so

    Not really,since we already know this.This is just another place where that information is being confirmed.

    *Sam doesnt count.

    1. Steve C says:

      Fairly sure Jon stopped considering himself any part of the Night’s Watch when he came back to life and announced his vows completed.

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        And yet he still believes his duty is to protect the living from the dead,to personally deal with that army.He still thinks of himself as a ranger.Probably thinks of himself as the only true ranger left.

    2. Angelo says:

      Please put a space after punctuation.

      Daenerys

      The problem is that the show tries to paint her as a sympathetic character. It’s not enough to say “she does bad things so we’re meant to consider her deranged” when you have characters rally for her and talk about her like she’s a benevolent savior who only does what is strictly necessary. Ok, people like Tyrion and Varys seem to be realizing it now, but if what you said is true then what were we supposed to make of the fact that people considered her a savior before?

      Arya

      Yes she’s bloodthirsty, but she’s not meant to be completely our of her mind is she? There’s a difference between being violently vengeful and being willing to just murder anybody who is vaguely a nuisance. I don’t think even Joffrey would have been so childish. From what she said in this episode you’d expect somebody who would have just stabbed the guards who blocked her at the entrance, or maybe got them hanged afterwards.

      Jon

      They’re talking about wights, not white walkers. A wight is just a regular ice zombie, the white walkers are the much harder to kill creatures that create them.
      Jon can consider himself a ranger all he wants, but in this case not delegating the mission to somebody else is completely insane, and as a king and former commander of the night’s watch he should understand that. This is yet another account of the show wanting Jon to be the Protagonist rather than the character he’s meant to be.
      And yes, Sam does count.

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Ok, people like Tyrion and Varys seem to be realizing it now, but if what you said is true then what were we supposed to make of the fact that people considered her a savior before?

        That she impressed them before.Either because they saw her doing miracles,or because she freed them.

        Its perfectly possible for one person to be adored by some and loathed by others.And we are shown numerous perspectives about dany.Heck,even cersei has some redeeming qualities(tyrion comments on her love for her children as her only good trait).People should not forget what dany did before(and how others saw her before) and judge her only on her actions in the last episode.

        Yes she's bloodthirsty, but she's not meant to be completely our of her mind is she?

        She might be,based on how unfeeling and traumatized she acted in other seasons.I certainly see her as fully psychotic.

        They're talking about wights, not white walkers.

        Yes,but the former are led by the latter.Its not unreasonable to expect the worst.

        Jon can consider himself a ranger all he wants, but in this case not delegating the mission to somebody else is completely insane, and as a king and former commander of the night's watch he should understand that.

        Jon was always emotional rather than rational.Not being sorted into rangers,he flips out and almost leaves.Seeing his enemy is a woman,he decides not to kill her,in the middle of enemy teritory.His brother is being shot with arrows,he runs in front of his army to be slaughtered as well.

        His only saving grace is that he is good with a sword and he has epic luck.

        And yes, Sam does count.

        No he doesnt.That was a fluke,and even sam knows it.

        1. Angelo says:

          All of your answers boil down to “it’s plausible”, “it’s not unreasonable” or “it’s not impossible”.
          The point isn’t what’s technically possible, but what the narrative is or isn’t building up to.
          Arya’s craziness switches on and off at random. Yes, I guess it’s possible for a person to be like that, but it doesn’t make for a particularly interesting character, especially after you’ve spent so much time following their supposed development. She spared some LANNISTERS because they were friendly a couple of episodes ago, but now she’s willing to behead allies for doing… nothing particularly egregious? Does she flip a coin every time to decide how unhinged she is?
          Yes, I guess that personally going on a crazy mission is in Jon’s original, emotive character. Is it bad to expect him to change and grow and finally understand what it means to be a king/commander after the show keeps putting him in charge?

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            The point isn't what's technically possible, but what the narrative is or isn't building up to.

            I was explicit before.Dany is not a good guy,she is not a bad guy,she is gray.She is arrogant,overconfident,but also recognizes some of her faults,which is why she surrounds herself with so many advisors.And how people see her depends on whose perspective we are sharing at the moment.This I like.

            Arya is psychotic and traumatized.She has been for years.Getting back into normal society is something that she will have trouble with.And I doubt she will reintegrate,because at no point did I see her try.This Im ambivalent about.It has potential,but Im not sure if it will amount to much.

            Jon learns nothing because he is an idiot.This I dont like.

            Arya's craziness switches on and off at random.

            No,it doesnt.She didnt kill those soldiers because they did nothing to offend her,but she was ready to pounce at any moment.Those who spoke against jon did offend her,thats why she is asking sansa to get their heads.

            Is it bad to expect him to change and grow and finally understand what it means to be a king/commander after the show keeps putting him in charge?

            Its not.And “the character didnt grow” is a valid criticism*.But thats not the criticism thrown against him in the article.

            *This is the reason I dont like what they did to sansa in the past.

  15. Leonardo Herrera says:

    What I cannot stand (as, “I twitch when watching” because hell no I’m not stopping watching this now) is the way the show looks just like fan fiction.

    I mean, Jamie should have died last week. He could have killed Drogon with the most epic suicidal charge ever, then being killed by, oh, I don’t know, a brutal blow by the dying dragon (not burned, because we want a funeral, of course.) It could have been GLORIOUS but instead they managed to have Bronn ride a sports car to catch him, jump several meters in the air and fall in some form of weird pool. Oh, my mistake, it was a river with no shallows.

    But no, Jamie’s favorite between some target audience.

    Jorah Mormont should have died. But no, Samwell of all maesters in the world should find him a miraculous cure.

    Then we get too many beloved (and not small) surviving characters and somehow they managed to get TOGETHER. Thoros? Bendric? Gendry? Jorah Mormont? Jon Snow? Tormund? The freakin’ Hound? Why? How? Why?

    1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

      It’s considered bad writing now for characters the audience knows and cares about to meet? Or for important characters not to just drop dead on a whim? Man, the book series has done some SEVERE damage to how you read fiction. Continuously introducing new, less interesting characters who never meet each other because you killed most the other ones isn’t actually considered GOOD writing. It’s the kind of thing a middling mangaka does to pad out his series at the 20 volume mark.

      1. Olivier FAURE says:

        Having one of the characters surviving perfectly unharmed after charging a freaking dragon (in a setting where dragons are established as extremely lethal, and said character established as Not Especially Fireproof) is bad writing, because it breaks suspension of disbelief and takes tension out of every “dangerous” scene after that.

        If named characters keep surviving “No one could possibly survive that” situations, then it becomes harder to be worried for them when they’re in mortal danger again, since it exposes the fact that whether they live or die is independent of the apparent danger they’re in.

        1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

          He survived a lethal situation for a specific reason… you know like Jon at Hardhome, or Sam with that one White Walker, or Arya all the times she has, or etc etc. Not sure why this one is questionable. He WOULD HAVE been killed, but someone saved him. Jorah surviving is for a purpose like Jon being revived. Call it the will of the Lord of Light. He’s meant to die somewhere else. Perhaps on the very next episode coming up!

          1. Olivier Faure says:

            Sure.

            Personally, I think those kind of scene completely kill my interest in the story’s stakes; even though I know named characters will probably die around the end of the season, the story we’re told doesn’t have any impact on which character dies next.

            1. Joshua says:

              That starts happening in the later books too. How many times do we get a “fade to black” with Arya or Tyrion?

              1. Olivier Faure says:

                Also Brienne and Jon.

                (though Dance With Dragons does have a “character tries to go toe to toe with a Dragon because he saw Daenerys do it and dies horribly” scene)

          2. Kris says:

            You said it yourself here. He got plot armor.

      2. BlueHorus says:

        Ah, the old ‘the books aren’t perfect, thus you can’t criticize the show’ argument. Tried and repeated, forever.
        It not like the books can be bad in one way and the show in another, or anything like that.

        Did Leonardo even mention the books in his post?

        1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

          Saying the show is “fan fiction” is pretty much outing yourself as a reader, yeah. I mean… obviously it is.

    2. Steve C says:

      How they handled Jamie was ridiculous! I was all hyped for this episode to see what happened to Jamie. Bull and shit happened. Jamie escaping a watery death was stupid on a practical level. Jamie escaping is even worse on a plot/narrative level!

      Jamie should have been captured and refuse to bend the knee. Tyrion begs a reprieve for Jamie and gets it. Maybe Tyrion offers to stand with his brother just as Dickon did with his father for symmetry* and Dany balks. Jamie can be the emissary to Cersei to ask for a prisoner exchange for Dany’s allies (crazy Dorne woman and useful Greyjoy).

      It is the same episode but just makes more sense. Tyrion and Jamie get their scene together where they talk about dear old dad. Cersei gets to legitimately feel betrayed because Jamie is bringing an offer from her enemy she doesn’t want to honor. Davos can ferry Jamie to King’s Landing and pick up Hammerboy. The stupid scene with the guards failing to recognize a richly dressed dwarf as Tyrion, (and everyone else who saw him in the city**!) that gets cut.

      *And to make those characters have a reason to exist in the story at all. Which they didn’t.
      **Except for the people who did in fact see Tyrion so they could report it rather than do anything about it. For no fucking reason at all! (Apparently all that nonsense with Jamie escaping the river was so word of a talk with Tyrion could get to Cersei first before Jamie could even tell her. Even though he presumably went directly to her after the conversation.)

      1. Droid says:

        You have defeated the enemy!

        Your Casualties:
        some unnamed soldiers
        TOTAL: bugger all (some wounded)
        Enemy Casualties:
        a lot of unnamed soldiers
        Jaime Lannister (wounded)
        TOTAL: a lot (1 wounded)

        Continue…

        Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Jaime Lannister was defeated in battle, but managed to escape!
        Your relation with Cersei’s Insane Kingdom of Stupidness (CIKoS) has deteriorated from -100 to -103.

        1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

          Considering how people keep pulling armies out of their behinds, this seems pretty appropriate.
          It also explains why only some people need to worry about logistics: Everyone else is an AI, so they don’t need to worry about petty things like “food” or “Dying in battle” or “Loyalty”.

          I wonder if we encountered some bug that means that the WalkerInvasionGo flag isn’t triggered? Is that why they keep standing around with a massive army up north?

          1. tzeneth says:

            Now you got me imagining the writers are actually creating the script and plot based on a play through of a Game of Thrones mod for Mount and Blade. :P Would be hilarious.

            1. TheJungerLudendorff says:

              Good thing they didn’t use Crusader Kings instead, half the season would be nothing but various assassination attempts, and most of the main characters would be dead before season six.

              Then again, it also means that murderizing half your nobles actually has consequences, so maybe that’s what they should have done.

      2. BlueHorus says:

        I was all hyped for this episode to see what happened to Jamie.

        Ah, you have fallen prey to what (we) booksnobs call the Honeypot Phenomenon. This is where people look at something that happens in GoT and say ‘no, that’s too stupid, there must be more to this.’
        So they posit something better. The original idea was that Tulisa Stark was a Lannister honeypot meant to lead Robb Stark awry, because surely the show wouldn’t make Robb this dumb; I mean that’s stupid and Tulisa’s anachronistic and her presence makes no sense otherwise. So surely-

        But, no, Robb was just that dumb, apparently.

        Jamie’s armored swim looked similar. Escape a dragon just to drown? No, it can’t be that, that’s terrible. What is it then, a cheap cliffhanger to make sure you came back next episode?
        Since that’s terrible too, it must be going to lead to him being captured by Dany! That’ll lead somewhere interesting! Maybe he’ll have a scene with Tyrion, start to see that-

        But, no, it was just a cheap cliffhanger after all.

        Bah.

        1. Steve C says:

          I strongly disagree. I would have been more ok with Jamie drowning than what we got. Jamie getting captured or dying are only two logical outcomes of that scene. Oh he was rescued by Bronn is the convoluted fanfic justification for Jamie not dying and not being captured. I disagree because your criticism should be reversed. Or applied to apologists.

          My writeup of how it could of gone was to get the story to the same place at the end of the episode. Only because ticking those boxes was apparently critically important. At least important enough to destroy all credibility for no other apparent reason. It didn’t have to be stupid and break credibility to tick those boxes. (Really unimportant boxes IMO too.)

          1. name says:

            He’s trying to tell you to get used to how stupid the show is. What do you think you’re watching exactly?

            1. Steve C says:

              I am used to how stupid the show is. The Spoils of War episode was the best in years. It was freak outlier.

              I feel as though people are reading the word “hyped” and ignoring every other word I wrote. Everything else I wrote slams the show for being bad. Not just bad, but pointlessly bad. I’m honestly getting a little frustrated here with I’m being misunderstood. I don’t feel I’m being unclear.

              1. Droid says:

                Well, people comment on things that they want to talk about.
                Is your plot idea better than the one the showrunners came up with? Probably, I stopped watching the show a long time ago.
                Is it less outrageous of an outcome after last week’s ending? Obviously.
                Is that enough to expect them to use it instead of the brainless cheap continuation? No.

                So people tend to point out why that last step from “it’s tremendously stupid to use this” to “they won’t use this” is not a reasonable conclusion.

                Having said that, why would Daenerys send Jaime when she doesn’t trust Cersei to keep her word? From her point of view, she would give her best bargaining chip to her enemy without anything in exchange.

              2. BlueHorus says:

                So I’m not frustrated, but I share the feeling of misunderstanding. Is someone insulting you? That wasn’t my intention.

                I agree with you. The show was stupid. It looked like it might have led somewhere interesting – you had ideas – but they went with crappy-fanfic-esque ‘Oh, Bronn saved him, all better now’.

                (Incidentally, CALLED IT last week. My prediction was ‘Thanks for getting me out of that lake, Bronn! You’re such a bro!’ and it ws a bit better than that, but I had a feeling it would be a cheap cliffhanger with no point or consequence)

                Seemed like the Honeypot Phenomenon to me.

                1. Steve C says:

                  Nobody is insulting me. It is just the replies are phrased in a way that I was defending or apologizing for the show, thereby misconstruing me. I’m criticizing the show, not defending it. It had one good episode as an outlier. I do not consider that a honeypot and I think you are using the term incorrectly. There’s a big difference between:

                  ‘That is stupid. There was no reason for it to be stupid.’
                  vs… “˜no, that's too stupid, there must be more to this.'

                  1. BlueHorus says:

                    Fair enough.

                    To be sure, your ideas were better than what the show eventually came up with.
                    I wish they had had Jamie get captured or killed, that would have meant something. And given the them the opportuntiny to have him talk with Tyrion, time away from Cersei, a hostage-exchange situation, etc.

  16. Hypatia says:

    I am not sure I have ever seen a war hammer that wasn’t comically oversized compared to ones actually used for combat.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Lucas_Cranach_the_Younger_-_Prince_Elector_Moritz_of_Saxony_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Warhammer-r-nagel.jpg

    Those would probably be hilarious tiny to most viewers.

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      Thats because the thing in the show was not a war hammer,but rather a maul.But those were not really weapons,rather tools used to quickly build(tear down?) fortifications,and used as makeshift weapons only when nothing else was available.

    2. Dev Null says:

      Anvil-ona-Stick is the traditional war weapon of fantasy characters with Scottish accents everywhere. They’re setting us up for the big reveal: Gendry’s mother was a dwarf.

      1. Droid says:

        That would be quite the reveal! Robert didn’t strike me as being into beards…

    3. Joshua says:

      The war-hammers in most fantasy settings would tend to be too slow to properly fight with: you get ONE swing to take out your opponent or at the very least daze him for a few seconds, or you’re leaving yourself wide opponent for a counter attack.

      In addition, I would guess that swinging something that heavy one-handed would do a lot of damage to your own body (muscles, tendons, pulling your arm out of the socket).

      Geez, has anyone drawing these pictures every swung a sledge-hammer? The ones depicted would be about 3-4 times that heavy, if not more in the more ridiculous examples (hammers more than a foot long and wide).

    4. TheJungerLudendorff says:

      To be fair, those are designed for dealing with heavily armoured opponents. The Inglorious Bastards over here are fighting zombies, and we all know that there is no such thing as overkill when you try to re-deadify the undead.

      On the other hand, it’s an utterly ridiculous and impractical weapon, ranking up there with gunswords, eight-barreled matchlock pistols, Russian Tsar tanks, the Death Star and impromptu bottle-shivs.

    5. Galad says:

      These look hilariously tiny to me, but then I guess that hitting an unarmored skull with one of these would probably fracture it, or at least incapacitate its bearer enough, that they’re no longer a threat. Adding armor to said skull would probably just increase the chance of said skull bearer being stunned, instead of outright killed, but would do nothing to decrease incapacitation.

      1. 4th Dimension says:

        Actually I think these were mostly used actually for fighting armored opponents and are meant to break the armor through impact, or more importantly use those wicked SPIKES on the back of them and the weight of the hammer to bore/needle/punch through the amor and spike the enemy beneath it.

        1. Droid says:

          It’s also the concussion. Ancient Balearic and Rhodean slingers for example used either stones or lead balls (so completely blunt) to sling, and they were able to kill hoplites in full armor with a hit in the head. Contemporary authors commented on how sometimes, the armor showed no sign of damage and very often, not a drop of blood was spilt, and yet, they dropped dead the instant they were hit.

          Of course, slinging improves the leverage you have on your projectile by basically extending your arm, so you should be able to impart more energy into a lead bullet with a sling than into the head of a warhammer with your arm alone. But if slings could kill reliably from range (where the bullet loses energy), then a warhammer should be able to kill through pure blunt trauma from melee range.

    6. Thanatos Crows says:

      Say hello to pollaxe!
      http://www.whitewellarms.com/USERIMAGES/12717406_934087539961545_5440468571553907258_n.jpg

      http://img.kb.dk/ha/manus/th290/kamp0273.jpg

      The ones in the latter image are particularly nasty due to their spiky butts. These are the kind of weapons those sorts of fantasy mallets are based on. See, two handed polearms vs. one handed hammers. Obviously these are no sledgehammers and are relatively agile weapons even when on the heavier side. Also leverage makes sure it packs a punch!
      The best part here is that sometimes combat with these – especially when facing a similiar weapon – can devolve into a rowing contest, and atleast we know Gendry would win each and every one of those!

  17. Nessus says:

    I feel like Dany was always this way. Only difference between the earlier seasons and now is she has more power to swing around, but she was always played as a having a strong sense of justice (courtesy of being basically enslaved and abused herself) coupled with a quasi-narcissistic blindness about how her own behavior fits into that. She’s always had a “fight atrocity with atrocity” MO driven more by rage and pride than reason.

    She’s always been bad at strategy, bad at logistics, and easily provoked into rash and disproportionate action. She’s always been the most enthusiastic consumer of her own Kool-Aid when it comes to her birthright, and it’s always been clear that’s her true #1 drive in seeking power. When she talks about “breaking the wheel”, she’s not talking about giving power to the people, she’s talking about becoming an unseatable benevolent world tryant.

    In her mind that outcome is as inevitable as natural law because she’s the “rightful” heir. And since (she believes) she’ll be more just than any other candidate (see: natural law), and her power will be absolute and unchallengable forever (see: natural law), this will be functionally identical to the wheel being broken.

    That’s not a defense of her as a sympathetic character, I’m just saying what she’s doing these days is perfectly consistent with the way she’s always handled things. The problems IMO are that:

    1) the showrunners do seem to be confused about whether her rampages are supposed to be good or bad. In abstract, she’s just as psycho as any of the bad guys, and more than a little Dunning-Kruger about her own ability to rule, but slightly more (tragically) sympathetic in that she actually does care about the smallfolk (she just keeps fucking that up by tripping over her own rage and narcissism). In practice, the showrunners keep getting caught up in the moment and writing/shooting her rampages as being awesome moments of fist-pumping glory (much like with Arya’s Punisher shtick).

    2) She’s not written or performed with as much charisma as she should be, given the basis of her power. The Dothraki follow her because they’ve been convinced she’s some kind of messianic prophisised one that will carry them to world domination. That started with the prophecy stuff pushed by Drogo in season 1, then got sealed later by the dragons and her various firewalking “miracles”. At least, that’s the sense I get of why they worship her instead of killing her after she burns their leaders.

    But the way she’s written, she’s a bland, kinda crappy wordsmith, and the actress plays her with a po-faced lack of charisma. She really needs to be a stirring presence to sell that messianic image. Conceptually it reads like she’s supposed to be the Dothraki Muad’Dib (in their eyes, at least), but they fail to sell that, so it’s no wonder so many people are confused over why/how she’s still Khalisi instead of a horribly abused corpse tied to a stable pole.

    Worse: what happens in Slaver’s Bay makes total sense with how she’s written/played, in contradiction to the above. She conquers the place, then fails to hold it because she’s crap at inspiring or winning over people. So again it’s like the show runners are confused about what they want her to be.

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      the showrunners do seem to be confused about whether her rampages are supposed to be good or bad.

      They always present both her bad and her good actions.To me,they arent confused,they are presenting her as gray,which she is.

      She's not written or performed with as much charisma as she should be, given the basis of her power.

      Not necessarily.Most people follow her because they either saw her go through flames unscathed or because they are terrified of her dragons.You really dont need much charisma for that to happen.

      1. Nessus says:

        [quote]They always present both her bad and her good actions.To me,they aren’t confused,they are presenting her as gray,which she is.[/quote]

        It’s not about what they show. It’s about how they frame it. I never said or implied they were being inconstant merely by showing these things, and I thought it was clear in my wording that I believed she’s intended to be a mix of good and bad. What I’m saying is that the people filming, editing, and scoring these scenes are clearly being directed to sell them as awesome moments we’re supposed to root for. Like with Arya, if you step back, and look at the aggregate you see the grey, but when you match at the scenes without thinking about the big picture, half the time it’s played like it’s supposed to be a cathartic power trip. Like antihero revenge porn.

        [quote]Not necessarily.Most people follow her because they either saw her go through flames unscathed or because they are terrified of her dragons.You really dont need much charisma for that to happen.[/quote]

        Yeah, sure. Except that’s not the kind of following we see. The Dothraki under her command are loyal in a way that looks like fanatical reverence. They aren’t following because they’re afraid of her, they’re following because they believe in her.

        The Unsullied are trained from childhood to tolerate brutality, fear nothing, and see the world in simple black-and-white terms. They follow her because liberator=good and damn anything else.

        The slavers utterly failed to be terrified by her dragons or miracles. They rebelled right off, and kept pushing right up until they made the goof of conveniently massing for open war so she could burn them properly.

        1. BlueHorus says:

          +1. To quote Bob:

          [T]he show takes every opportunity to sing her praises ““ Missandei gushes about how Daenerys is the “Queen we chose,” Jon tells Davos that she has a “good heart,” and Varys monologues at length about how she's best choice for Westeros.

          The complain isn’t that Dany is a flawed person who gets things wrong, and resorts to the ‘just burn them if they complain too much’ style of government too easily.
          It’s that she’s being presented as a good guy.

          The show could be using clever editing, similar dialogue, costuming and lots of other different techniques (The ‘language of the screen’?) to show that she’s really not that different from Cersei. Or Aerys, before her. That would be awesome (BTW).

          But no. Instead, Dany is dressed like a good guy, in light clothes, surrounded by the characters we like – who then praise her.
          Cersei is obviously intended to be hated, with her dark clothes (she even changed the uniform of the Queensguard to be darker!), evil nonologues and zombie minions.
          The show just treats them differently.

          1. Blackadder says:

            I agree. Part of the problem with Dany’s depiction is that the show’s cinematic language has always been overtly messianic when it comes to her, reveling in quasi-divine imagery and Empowering(TM) moments. The favoritism of the production towards Dany is so overt that it’s hard to reconcile her darker aspects with how she’s portrayed onscreen. It’s a rather schizoid depiction, made worse by a performance with only mildly more range than Portman’s Padme Amidala, that only serves to confuse the audience as to Dany’s role in the story (and not in a good shades of gray/morally ambiguous antagonist kind of way).

            1. Droid says:

              Apparently, many of the shortcomings of Portman’s Amidala were the fault of George Lucas. He imposed many of the wooden acting on her and would get mad at her efforts to try and make something out of the character.

            2. Daemian Lucifer says:

              It's a rather schizoid depiction

              The show presents her as messianic when characters who see her as messiah are on screen,but when its people who oppose her,the show emphasizes her monstrous actions.Whats wrong with that?We arent allowed to have multiple points of view about characters?

              I really dont get why people are saying this,or why they dont see arya as anything other than a good person(which is most definitely not),yet they have no problem with saying how tywin was monstrous,even though he was praised by his allies every time they were on the screen,even though his ruthless actions were presented just as bad ass.Yet somehow when doing the same thing with dany or arya as with tywin,the show isnt gray enough.

              1. BlueHorus says:

                If you genuinely can’t see it, then I’m not sure what else anyone could say to persuade you.

                I wrote out a couple more arguments in this space about Tywin, and Arya, and Dany, what they do and how their actions are portrayed – but then deleted them, because they’re just repeating what’s already been said in different ways.

                So yeah.

        2. Daemian Lucifer says:

          It's about how they frame it.

          You mean how when she does something vile,like crucify people,her advisors are shocked and many rebel against her?How when she burns a whole noble family alive,her advisors question whether she is as cruel as her father?

          Yes,her good actions are presented as good,and people who love her are shown to love her unconditionally.But at the same time we are shown the perspective of people who question her actions as well.Its not the fault of the show that the audience conveniently forgets a bunch of scenes while grasping at the others.Just like with arya,people constantly forget that she has been acting unhinged and psychopathic as much as being a badass assassin,and then they blame the show for it.

          The Dothraki under her command are loyal in a way that looks like fanatical reverence. They aren't following because they're afraid of her, they're following because they believe in her.

          They are the ones who saw her come out of the fire without a mark on her,while all the rest of their leaders perished in it.Thats the first thing I mentioned,the ones that witnessed a miracle.

          The unsullied are just as fanatical.They too dont care about her charisma or judgment.

          The slavers utterly failed to be terrified by her dragons or miracles. They rebelled right off, and kept pushing right up until they made the goof of conveniently massing for open war so she could burn them properly.

          Precisely.Those who dont follow her get consumed by flames.Which is why she doesnt need charisma.

          1. ehlijen says:

            But at the same time we are shown the perspective of people who question her actions as well.

            Usually those people are heavily TV coded to be evil and their views thus as wrong.

            .Just like with arya,people constantly forget that she has been acting unhinged and psychopathic as much as being a badass assassin,and then they blame the show for it.

            Arya tends to be a badass assassin and a monster in the same scenes. No one is forgetting any of them, but the show is trying its best to sell her killing sprees as awesome, rather than evil. Because that’s what the show is now: Dramatic characters trying to out-awesome each other. There aren’t any clever twisting plots like season one, there is just characters being raildroaded into each other so one can out-awesome the other, be it with a sick burn, leet sassynation skillz or straight out plot armour.

            To many, including many who complain about this change, that is still entertaining to watch. But it’s not the quality writing from the early seasons.

    2. Tremor3258 says:

      I always gave her points for realizing she did have some things to learn in spite of the rightful ruler bubble she’s in. Whether those lessons reduce Westeros to charcoal is up in the air

  18. newplan says:

    This is small(ish) compared to lots of the flaws lately but here goes.

    Tyrion suggests that Randall Tarly can take the black. Randall Tarly refuses “you are not my queen, you can’t send me to the Wall” – but that’s not how it works at all. No one gets sentenced to the Wall – if someone is allowed to take the black their crimes are forgiven.

    Why does the scene play out like this? Because they’re at point A – Randall and Dickon are captured and they need to get to point B – Dany burns them so all logic goes out the window so we can get the “dragon burns people to death” scene.

    1. Syal says:

      I thought Tyrion sentenced Janos Slynt to the Wall way back when.

      1. Blue_Pie_Ninja says:

        He did, which means it would make sense if Randyll took the black as well, instead of dying horribly

    2. Grey Cap says:

      How about: for someone with enough pride accepting a pardon might imply accepting the preceding guilty verdict? If Randall goes to the wall it implies he committed a crime he needed to be absolved of. And he does not accept the legitimacy of the court (in this case, an unhinged woman and her huge goddamn lizard) to judge him, although he expresses it clumsily. Alternatively his crime, if he were sentenced, would presumably be treason. But he says ‘you are not my queen’ meaning that he never accepted Danaerys as his queen and therefore does not consider himself to have committed treason against her.

      1. Blackadder says:

        Honestly, I thought this exchange was baffling, for two key reasons.
        1) The Tarlys have proven that they’ll do whatever it takes for them to come out ahead, including breaking oaths.
        2) The Tarlys view Danaerys as an illegitimate ruler.

        With those two principles in play for these characters, why didn’t they ask to take the black and run off back to King’s Landing at the first opportunity? Even setting aside Dany’s questionable legal rights to charge them with a crime, the natural thing for them to do would have been to beg for the black and then renege on it – there’s nothing in Randall’s characterization to suggest he’d volunteer to die as a martyr (along with his remaining heir, dooming his house – which he is very proud of, rather like a petty Tywin) on principle. Like so many other characters in the show at this point, their actions are dictated solely by the needs of the plot at a given moment.

        1. Grey Cap says:

          I don’t disagree. I think the line can easily be interpreted in a way that makes sense within that single scene and who Tarley is right there, right then. In the context of what’s come before? Not so much.

    3. BlueHorus says:

      Just a side note – remember that the son Randyll hates so much that he had him banished to the Wall (Sam) turned up at home and stole their very valuable valerian steel family sword?

      Did Randyll or his son ever mention that again?

      Or were they too busy being inconsistently stupid in the service to the ‘plot’?

  19. Ness says:

    I think I saw that the wiki assumes each season = 1 year. I hope that’s not true because if so apparently ships can sail around a whole continent in the span of a few minutes in our time but an army of the dead takes two years to march to the wall. Which, what are they going to do at the wall anyway? Ned Stark’s brother (whose name I have forgotten) said that there were runes in the wall that prevented the dead from crossing. Which I guess since they’re bringing a wight south we’ll be forgetting anyway so, I guess nevermind. I shouldn’t have said anything. I didn’t hate the episode, in fact I liked it a lot for the lower amounts of idiot ball usage. I saw the “behind the scenes” or whatever after the episode where the writers want us to decide for ourselves if Dany is really crazy. Or… you could characterize her consistently maybe? If she’s supposed to be crazy maybe we can have her just be crazy and if she’s not maybe she shouldn’t be burning people alive like her crazy dad? Just a thought.

    1. Syal says:

      In the books at least, there’s a horn that can supposedly bring down the Wall, though I think it’s on the non-wight side now.

  20. Steve C says:

    The message has been signed by Sansa. I have no idea what it could be. Who would she be writing to in secret? And why would Littlefinger have it? The Maester mentions that it's an old message, so maybe it's from a previous season.

    I paused the video and read the message. It is from the beginning of season 2. The audience already knows what it says. It is the message Sansa sent to Winterfell for Rob that Ned was dead. The one that was authored by Cersei. That Ned pledged fealty and then died from ‘wounds’ in a failed bid to steal the throne from Joffrey.

    I have no idea why it is important now. It appears to be some ridiculous scheme of Littlefinger to engineer this message into Arya’s hands to create drama between her and Sansa. I don’t get it. I also don’t understand why Arya didn’t just go to the Meister and ask what what the message was. This whole plotline feels manufactured to waste screentime.

  21. Olivier Faure says:

    Of all the annoying bits in this episode, the “Jon goes capture a zombie with a small commando” bit is probably the dumbest.

    At some point, Tormund tells Davos “You’re supposed to talk him out of these stupid ideas”, and it’s played like, ahah, this silly Jon with his stupid suicidal irresponsible plans! What a guy!

    Jon even tells Tormund he has “not enough” men! YOU’RE THE KING IN THE NORTH. How can you ever possibly not have enough men?

    Also, in no particular order, he mentions to Daenerys that he might die which is a pretty big concern and why isn’t anyone more concerned about this? And it didn’t occur to anyone before to try and capture a ‘live’ zombie to prove once and for all that they aren’t full of crap. (the books also seem to forget about that after the one attempt with the hand, though Jon tried to stick some corpses from beyond the wall in isolation in case they rose) And Tyrion stupidly risks his life getting smuggled into King’s Landing, even though he’s super recognizable and has a bounty on his head. And Cersei hears about it but doesn’t try to capture him.

  22. slipshod says:

    The distance travelled by the wights becomes especially comical when Jon & company jump from Dragonstone to Eastwatch in the span of 20 minutes.

    But hey, at least Jon threw Jorah lots of jealous glances, eh. There is hopefully incestuous snogging in our future.

    1. mewse says:

      Jon and Sir Jorah are related? I must have missed that. ;)

  23. shadr says:

    I’m glad you raised how unlikable Daenerys has become as a character, but in my opinion, her characterization was pretty much butchered in Season 5.

    Remember Hizdahr? If you don’t, I don’t blame you. He was a noble man of Mereen that Daenerys was suppose to marry (or rather, forced to marry). He’s introduced in S4 after Daenerys crucifies the slave owners of Mereen, including his father. It’s then revealed that he was basically an activist, he ruled in favor of not retaliating against Daenerys, and was actively trying to curb slavery in Mereen. Hizdahr asks if he can bury his father instead of leaving him up on a crucifix, and Dany agrees.

    Hizdahr becomes a part of Daenerys’ inner circle at this point, at which he is regarded suspiciously by Daenerys, due to the Sons of the Harpy. This makes sense so far, Hizdahr is a pretty sketchy fellow, so it makes sense for her to be suspicious.

    But then Barristan dies. Daenerys imprisons Hizdahr and several other noblemen, and burns one alive right in front of Hizdahr. Hizdahr is left to rot in a cell for a bit, before Dany returns and tells him he will marry her.

    So now Hizdahr, a man whose father was tortured and murdered by this foreign woman, and who just burned a colleague of his right in front of him, is now forced into a marriage with her. Hizdahr basically has no choice but to agree, and is later killed at the fighting pits by the Sons of the Harpy, confirming his innocence. What a bleak life.

    This would all be okay if Daenerys reflected on it at all next season. As a direct result of her actions (by forcing a marriage proposal onto a man, thus making him a target for the Sons of the Harpy) an innocent man died. I thought, probably like many others, that Dany would grow from this next season. We would see her struggle with guilt, see her reevaluate herself as a leader.

    But none of this happens. I don’t even think Dany mentions his name once in the sixth season. You have to ask yourself then, what purpose did Hizdahr serve? He had no thematic impact for Mereen, it did nothing for Daenerys’ character, he did little for the narrative. This also makes any subsequent scene where Dany is framed as a ‘badass epic hero’ (basically the entirety of S6, where she’s on her dragons constantly and epic music is blaring) almost insufferable.

    In fact, Daenerys and Hizadhr’s relationship is a mirror of Joffery and Sansa’s. Both Joffery and Daenerys murder their spouse’s respective fathers (Dany took it a step further and tortured him), both use violence to intimidate them, both force their partners into marriage, and hell, both are born of incest and feel entitled to the Iron Throne as a birthright.

    The only difference between these two characters is that Joffery is rightfully portrayed for the monster he is, whereas Daenerys is still treated as a moral center of the show.

    ——

    Another thing that should be noted is how poorly written Arya’s character is at this point. I’m not talking about her general characterization (though that is bad too), but that we have no idea how powerful she is, we have no idea what the extent of her Faceless-Men-Stealth abilities are. A lot of scenes are ruined when they can otherwise be tense, engaging the audience in relation to whether Arya can surpass a certain challenge.

    Take for instance; Arya is able to apparently murder Walder Frey's sons, cook them into a pie, feed it to Walder, kill Walder, take his face, impersonate Walder for some period of time, mimic his voice and mannerisms, trick the Walder family into believing she's Walder for a period of time, kill all the Frey's, travel to the Riverlands, travel to Winterfell, sneak by guards in a ninja-like fashion, fight a trained assassin in the dark, etc. but she apparently is susceptible to being spied on by Littlefinger in this episode?

    She's built up as this master-ninja assassin with an almost sixth-sense level of awareness, yet she's easily out-spied by Littlefinger. This is a direct cause of the audience not knowing what Arya is capable of, how powerful she is. Call this a nitpick, but in my opinion, after nearly two seasons of her training with the Faceless, the audience should have a good idea of Arya’s capabilities and limits. Stuff like this is beyond lazy.

    Also, how did Tyrion, a despised dwarf who is believed to have murdered a King (and also has a bounty on him for said killing), and is the brother of the current Queen, able to just infiltrate King’s Landing? Back in S5, people were murdering random dwarves from around the world just to claim Cersei’s reward for a lordship. Did no one really notice him? After all, he is, by his own admission, “The most famous dwarf in the whole world”, right? I mean, he didn’t even conceal his face with a scarf or something, the guards noticed him instantly on his way back because of his scars. How did he even find Bronn anyway? Whatever.

    Also pretty comically dumb was the amount of travel in this episode. This show has lost any semblance of time at this point. Davos travels from Dragonstone to King’s Landing, and then back to Dragonstone, and then to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, all in the span of one episode. Sorry, but that’s ridiculous. That must have taken, what, 2-4 weeks at least? It’s disorienting to see such fast travel and blatant disregard of logistics for said travel (eg. like the Vale manifesting itself during the BotB, that somehow went undetected by Ramsay despite that they would need food, baggage lines, set up camps, etc. that could easily be detected by a scout or something).

    A lot of people dismiss the general ‘time-travelling’ criticisms as nitpicking because earlier seasons also had characters travel large breaches of land, but that’s disingenuous. There was actual regard for how and when characters got to where they were. When Littlefinger is at King’s Landing and announces he is going to strike a deal with Renly in the Riverlands, we don’t see him until an entire episode later. We had “breathing room”, so to speak.

    Compare this to now, where we have Davos travelling to three different locations across the continent all within one episode, or armies magically manifesting (like the Vale mentioned earlier). There’s no more “breathing room”.

    This episode felt really rushed, and there’s a lot more to say (like the obnoxious “thought you were still rowing” fan-service line Davos delivers), but this post is long enough.

    1. Olivier FAURE says:

      Regarding the Hizdar plot, it’s especially weird when compared to the book version (which, admittedly, is weird for a bunch of other reasons).

      In the books, Hizdar is a pretty slimy, obsequious guy of the “respect your superiors, bark at the waiters” type, who is pretty obviously trying to evict Daenerys and take over Meereen. He offers her delicacies that turn out to be poisoned, get her to re-open the fighting pits, replaces Daenery’ lieutenants with his own as soon a he can, etc.

      The weird part is that his main claim to power and the reason he married Daenerys in the first place is that he promised to stop the Sons of the Harpy’s killings, and succeeded. Everyone points out that this is ridiculously suspicious and suggests he’s either their leader or their leader’s figurehead, but no one actually confronts him about it. Daenerys never asks “So how exactly did you manage to stop the killings?”, even though it’s basically the most important question of her part of the book.

      Anyway, Show!Daenerys treats show!Hizdar like he’s book!Hizdar, when show!Hizdar seems like a pretty nice, idealistic-but-misguided man overall.

  24. Johan Lundgren says:

    Hello MrBtongue!

    I was very happy to see you had found an outlet for your writing talent since I always liked your videos. The articles here were really interesting too. However they seem to have gotten into a groove that is kinda unavoidable now that they are about TV-episodes that aired just a day ago, there can’t be that long term focus, the teaching about tropes and devices I’ve never heard of, attempts to solve gaming, and all the other nerdy things you stand for. Don’t get me wrong, recapping and griping is fun too, but I like the other stuff more.

    I hope that once this season is over, you’ll get back to writing about things that you’ve spent months to years reflecting over, preferably in that mellow self-aggrandizing tone you do so well.

    A warm kram from Johan

  25. name says:

    “So apparently Arya thinks that “the King in the North should stay in the North” is an insult worthy of beheading?”

    Arya did not think that. I think it’s implied clearly enough that she was headscrewing Sansa. Essentially, she is implying Sansa wasn’t offended enough by their willingness to give up on Jon so easily. Because apparently, Jon’s choice to negotiate with Dany was ridiculous to denounce him. As you pointed out, this is pretty stupid, but I guess they’re coming from an angle of Jon only recently becoming a king and already doing things they don’t agree with. They’re all on the edge and are “naturally” having second thoughts.

    I do agree the whole thing is incredibly contrived though. Sansa does not seem to be having any on-screen intentions of betraying Jon so the only plausible reason for Arya to think what she thinks is that she’s a huge smartass and also still dislikes Sansa. Also Sansa is Littlefinger’s buddy and Arya dislikes Littlefinger because he’s quite clearly a moustache twirling villain whom anyone with a room temperature IQ or above dislikes. And that’s the angle they’ll be taking, I think. Arya was always a smartass and her recent accomplishments have turned her into even more of a smartass. And then Littlefinger uses this to pit her against Sansa.

    “The message has been signed by Sansa. I have no idea what it could be. Who would she be writing to in secret? And why would Littlefinger have it? The Maester mentions that it's an old message, so maybe it's from a previous season. I guess we'll find out.”

    It’s just a fake letter. The whole thing is a performance for Arya. Notice how Littlefinger was eyeing Arya last episode and already hatching the plan.

    “Jon's Stupid Plan”

    Yeah well, that’s because they dropped the part from the book where Jon intentionally incubates zombies in ice dungeons. So now he has to fetch one.

    “Jon's parentage doesn't really matter that much anymore”

    It does. Not even these showrunners are stupid/careless enough to ignore it after having shown it. The whole Jon strokes a dragon part is supposed to remind us of R+L.

    As for Dany, it was always my theory that she could easily follow her father’s footsteps. Apart from the implied genetic predisposition towards insanity, she had a pretty insane life so far. Can get to a person. Her inner monologues have her constantly doubting herself when it comes to important decisions (while she’s a one-dimensional superhero in the show, but that’s another story), but then throwing caution to the wind, reminding herself she’s the queen of the dragons and doing something crazy that could get her killed. But it works out. She does this repeatedly. If Dany eventually went insane with bloodthirst in the books, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised, especially with two Targs (one Blackfyre, whatever) vying for the throne. There’s about zero chance of the show pulling this though and as far as they will go is a few people being kinda concerned with her psychopathic tendencies. But then that goes away and everything is cool again. Well, nice that at least it’s sorta acknowledged for a moment though.

  26. Rivlien says:

    Yeah the white walkers really bother me too. Just from the tip of my head everyone else’s movement these last two seasons look like this. And that is just like 50% of the cast. http://imgur.com/a/RECtN

    1. Olivier Faure says:

      Ah ah, Euron’s movement are like “Now I’m there, and now I’m here, and now I’m there again! Who’s the blue line? Jaime? I don’t think he went to Casterly Rock at all.

  27. Dork Angel says:

    I think you’re putting modern morality over what is basically a medieval setting. After a battle what often happened with prisoners would be the “peasant” soldiers were killed and the nobles held for ransom. Dany reverses this and gives the cannon fodder the option to “bend the knee” (and presumably then lets them go free) and kills the nobles (fulfilling her promise to break the wheel). By killing the nobles she spared everyone else (with even the few hardcore ones bending the knee after the burning). Harsh but necessary…

    1. Shoeboxjeddy says:

      True, it did seem like about 15 men were going to take the death option until they actually SAW it. Then no one else took it at that point.

  28. Erik says:

    Davos “smuggles” Tyrion into King's Landing ““ by rowing onto a beach in plain view in broad daylight. Damn, smuggling must be an easy trade in those parts. And did they really travel from Dragonstone to King's Landing in a rowboat? These Westerosi really take their back workouts seriously.

    In our appropriate parallel medieval technology, offloading people and even cargo into rowboats was how you got to and from ships. Ports where you could sail right up to the dock were fairly few, and is one of the reasons that a good port like King’s Landing is so important. Most shores had sandy or rocky beaches out for too long to build a wharf. It should be in the background in most of these shots, but I guess they were skimping on CGI where they didn’t really need it. So sailing to the out-of-sight side of a nearby point, anchoring, and dropping a rowboat to take people/goods to shore would be totally normal for smugglers.

    Tl;Dr: they only rowed from the ship which is anchored just beyond the bar (or horizon in this case).

    1. Olivier Faure says:

      I think the criticism is that Davos sails and anchors right next to the city wall, where any guard could see his barge and come investigate, and does it in broad daylight, instead of coming at night.

  29. Spirit Bear says:

    The wright mission feels like they have an extra couple of episodes they need to pad out the season or in the books the Night Watch have captured one and they need to explain it.

    1. BlueHorus says:

      Just like that bit where Jon had to go beyond the wall to kill the Fookin’ Legend of Gin Alley. Hopefully there will be a better bos fight at the end, this time.

      But…isn’t “we need to pad this out, make someone do something stupid” the guiding principle behind 70% of this season?

    2. Shoeboxjeddy says:

      Getting a cease fire in the war is a padding episode? How the eff would you come to that conclusion? This would be the first full stop in the warring since the end of season 1… Not only do they NOT have extra episodes, they have LESS than the usual 10.

  30. Olivier Faure says:

    Could you add an edit to the “murder your queen” bullet point? A lot of people have pointed it out by now.

    I know edits might not be in your (or the site’s) editorial style, but it’s really weird that you’re blaming the show for something that it got right, that made sense to the characters in-universe and made sense to most / a lot of viewers.

  31. Daemian Lucifer says:

    I have a question:was there a reason for westeros to be that big anyway?Do the books ever have a payoff for the size of the continent?If the culture is fantasy europe,why not have the continent be the size of europe as well?We had no problems leading a plethora of wars on this tiny piece of land in the past.

    1. Dork Angel says:

      I suppose Westeros could be the size of the UK. Just ignore the vast changes in weather between the far north and the far south…

    2. Harper says:

      The size is definitely an issue with most things Martin writes. Westeros is the size of South America yet travel distances are described more like the UK that inspired it.
      Even certain castles are way too high to be feasible in the medieval setting and the Wall itself is so large that George Martin acknowledged making it too big when he saw it depicted visually in the video game

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