{"id":10879,"date":"2011-03-07T09:13:56","date_gmt":"2011-03-07T14:13:56","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/?p=10879"},"modified":"2011-04-21T06:58:13","modified_gmt":"2011-04-21T11:58:13","slug":"a-matter-of-life-and-geth","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/?p=10879","title":{"rendered":"A Matter of Life and Geth"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><table width='600'  cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' border='0' align='center'><tr><td><a href='http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Robby_the_Robot'><img src='https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/images\/splash_robbie.jpg' class='insetimage' width='600' alt='splash_robbie.jpg' title='splash_robbie.jpg'\/><\/a><\/td><\/tr><\/table><\/p>\n<p>Last week Reader Cody211282 was having an <a href=\"?p=10863&#038;cpage=1#comment-192677\">interesting debate<\/a> in the comments about the nature of AI. Should the Geth in Mass Effect 2 be considered &#8220;alive&#8221;?  Here is just a bit of the exchange:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>But they aren&#39;t living they are machines, it&#39;s like comparing my computer to my dog(I know I&#39;m dumbing it down a bit here), they can both do basic tasks and I love them both but one of them isn&#39;t alive and the other is. The Geth have software that dictates what they do, even Legion says the that only reason the Heretic Geth follow the Reapers is because of a computer glitch.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Points to the Mass Effect setting for this.  This is exactly what I love about science fiction.  When it&#8217;s good, it brings up questions about what life is, what intelligence is, how we perceive the universe, and why humans behave the way they do.  When it&#8217;s <em>really<\/em> good, it asks these questions in a way that leads to bigger questions, and allows the reader to ponder the answers for themselves.<\/p>\n<p><!--more-->In this particular debate, Cody is advocating the idea that no matter how smart a robot is, it&#8217;s never entitled to be regarded as alive, because it&#8217;s a machine. Which is true &#8211; it&#8217;s <em>not<\/em> alive.  But a lot of sci-fi fans (myself included) would insist that it be treated with [some of?] the rights we give to humans, simply because it&#8217;s intelligent.  That is, your person-ness is based on intellect, not on construction methods. <\/p>\n<p>But if someone accepts the position that persons must be organic, then as a sci-fi author you can play around with the idea by forcing the reader to figure out where they <em>really<\/em> draw the line.  What if we build a computer, but we used neurons instead of transistors?  (But it otherwise operated like a normal computer.  Maybe build yourself a nice organic Linux box, for example.) What if you built a robot, but you used an organic brain?  What if you made a synthetic brain that operated identical to the human brain, Asimov-style?  What exactly denotes personhood? The design, or the building materials? <\/p>\n<p>Douglas Adams played around with this idea in <a href=\"http:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/The_Restaurant_at_the_End_of_the_Universe\">The Restaurant at the End of the Universe<\/a> when he introduced <a href=\"http:\/\/www.saunalahti.fi\/~huuhilo\/dna2.html\">an intelligent animal that had been bred to be eaten<\/a>:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8216;That&#8217;s absolutely horrible,&#8217; exclaimed Arthur, &#8216;the most revolting thing I&#8217;ve ever heard.&#8217;<\/p>\n<p>&#8216;What&#8217;s the problem Earthman?&#8217; said Zaphod, now transfering his attention to the animal&#8217;s enormous rump.<\/p>\n<p>&#8216;I just don&#8217;t want to eat an animal that&#8217;s standing there inviting me to,&#8217; said Arthur, &#8216;It&#8217;s heartless.&#8217;<\/p>\n<p>&#8216;Better than eating an animal that doesn&#8217;t want to be eaten,&#8217; said Zaphod.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Of course the real problem here &#8211; and the one they never talk about because it would kill the humor &#8211; is that Arthur is actually upset at eating something intelligent. In his mind he&#8217;s granted person-hood to the creature, which takes it off the menu.  The question isn&#8217;t &#8220;does this animal want to be eaten?&#8221; but &#8220;is this creature capable of understanding the question in the first place?&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>A lot of sci-fi authors maintain that intelligent beings will naturally desire to survive, express themselves, find acceptance, and experience love.  <a href=\"?p=7556\">I&#8217;m on the record<\/a> saying that I don&#8217;t think this is the case. In that article I said&#8230;<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>The conventional wisdom in science fiction is that any artificial intelligent beings would naturally adopt the same drives and goals as Homo sapiens. That is, they&#39;ll fight to survive, seek to gain understanding, desire to relate to others, and endeavor to express themselves. Basically, Maslow&#39;s hierarchy of needs. Fiction authors routinely tell us the story of robots who want to make friends, have emotions, or indulge dangerous neurotic hang-ups.<\/p>\n<p>But I don&#39;t think this necessarily follows. I think it&#39;s possible to have an intelligent being \u00e2\u20ac&quot; something that can reason \u00e2\u20ac&quot; that doesn&#39;t really care to relate to others. Or that doesn&#39;t care if it lives or dies. &#8220;I think therefore I am&#8221; need not be followed by &#8220;I want to be&#8221;. <\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><table width='600'  cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' border='0' align='center'><tr><td><img src='https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/images\/splash_legion.jpg' class='insetimage' width='600' alt='Shepard Commander. We once captured a gill-bearing aquatic vertebrate of this size.' title='Shepard Commander. We once captured a gill-bearing aquatic vertebrate of this size.'\/><\/td><\/tr><tr><td class='insetcaption'>Shepard Commander. We once captured a gill-bearing aquatic vertebrate of this size.<\/td><\/tr><\/table><\/p>\n<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter if you think the drives of organics came from a creator God, or through millions of years of merciless Darwinistic vetting.  (And please don&#8217;t sidetrack this with THAT debate.) Organic creatures [believe that they] have <em>purpose<\/em>, and their drives flow naturally from those. If you ask a human, what their &#8220;purpose&#8221; was, you&#8217;d get a lot of different answers. &#8220;To enjoy life&#8221;, &#8220;to understand the universe we live in&#8221;, &#8220;to make the world a better place&#8221;, &#8220;to be loved&#8221;, &#8220;to die with the most toys&#8221;.  Few people would say that the purpose of their life is to simply survive and propagate the species. <\/p>\n<p><em>Say Johnny, what do you want to do when you grow up?<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>I want to find a mate and reproduce according to my biological imperatives!<\/em><\/p>\n<p>But what is the purpose of the Geth? What do they want, beyond basic survival? Or rather, what would the Geth <em>say<\/em> if you asked them that question?  It&#8217;s obvious that the Geth are more or less classical sci-fi AI that &#8211; as soon as they become sapient &#8211; immediately attain all of these biological imperatives for survival of self &#038; kind, not to mention the practice of making such distinctions. (Hey, this other living thing is unlike me, so I value it lower than my own kind.)   That&#8217;s fine.  An AI like the kind I write and think about would feel strange to people who take familiar sci-fi robot tropes for granted. It would require a lot of exposition get the audience on the same page.  <\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;ll probably scratch this itch by writing some AI fiction again someday.  But in the meantime it&#8217;s fun to play with and speculate about the ones from BioWare:<\/p>\n<p><strong>What DO the Geth want?<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Last week Reader Cody211282 was having an interesting debate in the comments about the nature of AI. Should the Geth in Mass Effect 2 be considered &#8220;alive&#8221;? Here is just a bit of the exchange: But they aren&#39;t living they are machines, it&#39;s like comparing my computer to my dog(I know I&#39;m dumbing it down [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[120],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-10879","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-videogames"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10879","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=10879"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/10879\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=10879"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=10879"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.shamusyoung.com\/twentysidedtale\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=10879"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}