The Other Kind of MMO

By Bob Case Posted Saturday Apr 25, 2020

Filed under: Video Games 82 comments

(Achilles and The Grognard is on temporary hold while my various playthroughs catch up.)

(Also, I know there’s an irritating white line in the header image. I made a mistake copy-pasting.)

People are still somehow playing EVE Online, the internet spaceship MMO that came out in 2003.

Not bad for a seventeen year-old game.
Not bad for a seventeen year-old game.

I played EVE on and off from around 2007 to 2013 or so, and very occasionally since then. It’s by far the best and worst online game I’ve ever played. It’s ancient, and full of the remnants of the 2003 vintage game design choices. Both despite and because of this, I enjoyed my time in New Eden. I got to experience the much-discussed metagame: at various points, I was a spy, a scammer, a capital ship pilot, and a member of several different sovholding alliances (that is, player groups that controlled areas of conquerable space).

And then, after many years of effort, I reached the highest skill level an EVE player can reach: I stopped playing EVE. Of course I had the usual litany of complaints about the game, the same litany anyone who’s played an MMO for six years has. But I also felt like the game was winding down. I mean, it was ten years old at that point. Surely it was time to start thinking sequel?

Shows what I know. Seven years later people are still at it. The game is dying, of course, but the game’s been dying since 2008 and somehow it’s not dead yet. The playerbase still has enough vitality to periodically revolt, for instance. You would think that at some point in the last seventeen years, another company would have come along and eaten CCP’sThe game’s developer, no relation to the Chinese Communist Party. lunch by now. But that hasn’t happened. A dozen fortunes have been lost iterating on the World of Warcraft concept, but nothing comparable has happened here. I once made a video about this.

So what is the EVE “concept,” and how would one iterate on it? At this point I should rewind to catch people up who are unfamiliar with the game. EVE is a game about spaceships, set in another galaxy in the far future. You start the game with a rinky-dink little spaceship, but as you earn money you buy bigger, fancier ones, all the way to supercapitals, which cost billions in in-game currency and take months to build. You earn money by performing similar activities that you might see in a typical theme park MMO. They have different names – quests are called missions for instance – but otherwise they would be recognizable to someone who’s played World of Warcraft.

Large fleet fights are not always aesthetically pleasing.
Large fleet fights are not always aesthetically pleasing.

What makes EVE unique is the presence of zero-security or “nullsec” systems. In nullsec, the usual rules governing PVP interaction are suspended, and players can cheerfully blow each other up without the usual consequences. You still have to pay for the ammo, but aside from that, nullsec is the wild west of space. What’s more, many of the game’s most valuable resources – such as rarer asteroids, higher NPC pirate bounties, and minerals mined from moons of the R32 and R64 variety – are found in abundance only in nullsec.

To top it all off, in-game groups of players called “alliances” are able to plant virtual flags in these systems and claim them for themselves. This is called taking “sovereignty” (usually abbreviated to “sov”) and carries a variety of both costs and benefits. The result of all this is alliances of players – frequently numbering in the thousands – setting out to live in lawless nullsec, control its various income sources, and nurture endless feuds against each other. It looks like this. The “empty” region in the center of the map is “high security” space, which can’t be conquered and where there are penalties for attacking other players. Everything around it is controlled by one of several player groups, helpfully color-coded in the linked maps. There are also intermediate systems called “low-sec,” but never mind those for now.

This is, in my opinion, an elegant way of setting up a game world. There’s a clear contrast, at least in theory, between the low-risk, low-reward play in the center of the map and the high-risk, high-reward play at the edges. There’s also economic interchange between the two areas – valuable raw materials come from outside in, and finished goods go from inside out. You can get rich overnight mining space gold in a free-for-all – or slowly and safely inside high-security space, building the ships the nullsec pilots will launch at each other over the course of their endless fighting. It’s supposed to look and sound something like this:


Link (YouTube)

Or at least that’s the idea. In practice, something like 80% of EVE players live in high sec full time and don’t directly participate the nullsec metagame at all. What’s more, if you’re thinking that nullsec is nonstop excitement, you’d be wrong. The big power blocs (usually called “coalitions” in the game’s lingo) that dominate conquerable space eventually tired of grinding wars of attrition and now spend most of their time in an endless ceasefire occasionally nicknamed “the big blue donut.” (Allied groups are said to be “blue” to each other, so if all of nullsec is mutually blue it’s like a blue donut.)

Then of course there’s the people involved. Player alliances are most often led by men in their twenties and thirties, some of whom respond well to toxicity and confrontation and some of whom don’t. During my occasional time spent as a spy I got an up-close and sometimes depressing look at why EVE is frequently called “high school in space.” Here’s what that looks and sounds like. Warning: profanity – lots of it.


Link (YouTube)

I’m not just trying to dump on the game. Developers CCP made a type of MMO that had never been made before, so part of the design was guesswork by necessity. They’ve also made continual adjustments, tinkering with the mechanics, sov system, and economy over the course of regular expansions. But many of the issues handicapping the game’s potential were baked in back in 2003 and there’s no baking them back out again.

So why discuss this second-tier, seventeen-year-old MMO at all? Because EVE Online, to me, is the genre’s most notable example of the road not taken. It is, like the title of this post, The Other Kind of MMO. Nearly every other developer focuses on PVE content, with PVP existing inside a walled-off warren, if it exists at all. My personal hunch is that there’s significant unmet demand here. Whoever successfully iterates on the EVE template is going to win all the marbles, or at the very least turn a profit.

I’m not sure CCP has it in them. Over the past decade or so a handful of ambitious plans have come out of their headquarters in Iceland, like giving players the ability to walk around inside stations, integrating an FPS with the game, and launching a World of Darkness MMO. None of them panned out. They appear to have one of these mysterious systemic dysfunctions that burrow inside the intestines of certain companies, preventing them from being able to complete projects.

So, once again it falls to me to move the genre forward. Apparently this is what I do now: dream up hypothetical sequels to franchises that have disappointed me. Real-world games don’t stand a chance against the glittering, gem-like creations that float in my head, unblemished by this fallen world. This will be one of them. But before I splatter the paint of wild speculation all over the canvas of wishful thinking, Jackson Pollock-style, we have to examine the challenges involved – and there are many. To do that, next time I’ll take you on a quick guided tour of my personal experiences with the game, and what I think can be learned from them.

 

Footnotes:

[1] The game’s developer, no relation to the Chinese Communist Party.



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82 thoughts on “The Other Kind of MMO

  1. ivan says:

    “eventually tired of grinding wars of attrition” tbh this actually sound kinda cool: they’ve progressed as nations and societies far enough to be weary of war.

    Also that “this is Really EVE” video is great.

    1. Kamica says:

      Eve Online is very interesting for the stories that come from it, and would probably be a good thing to study as a politics student… But it doesn’t at all appeal to me to actually play =P.

    2. Zaxares says:

      You might be interested in RPGs set in the Aliens-verse then, because this is EXACTLY what happened. :) As humanity expanded out into the galaxy and started colonizing new worlds, warfare (or at least, open, large-scale warfare like what we think of during WWII) became nearly non-existent because of the immense costs involved when enemy targets could be dozens of light-years away (and it would take months just for word to get back to you about how your campaign went, because there’s no FTL communication and so the only way to get word back from the front-lines is for a scout ship to travel back and physically inform you how it went), and spaceships cost in the billions of credits to build and are so valuable that nobody wants to risk losing them in a firefight.

      So what happened is that conflict instead went small-scale, via aggressive diplomacy, hostile corporate takeovers, espionage, sabotage and occasionally small, discreet military ops that are carried out by black ops squads from your corporation’s security forces or merc groups whose actions can be disavowed.

      1. Agammamon says:

        Aliens-verse? As in the movie Alien?

        Because they have FTL communications there – not instantaneous but its referenced in both a deleted scene in Aliens and you see it directly in Alien 3.

        1. Zaxares says:

          Ahh, that would explain it. The rulebook I had was made shortly after Aliens came out, and my guess is that they didn’t include that deleted scene, and before extra info from the sequels came in. Still, even in the comics direct communication between sectors that are vast distances apart isn’t possible. Generally it’s only limited to within very narrow channels within a sector that have dedicated tight-beam satellites that can bounce communication lasers between each other. The further and more remote the region, the worse and longer communications get. (It’s why the Marines stranded on LV-426 would have to wait for close to 17 days before their absence would be noticed and a second squad dispatched to investigate.)

    3. Sartharina says:

      From what I can tell, for a long time, EVE was kept dynamic by two major alliances, which surprisingly fit into two common sci-fi tropes. You had the Band of Brothers – the best of the best that emerged from within the game’s system. They poached talent from other corps, made vassal alliances, and pretty much dominated space – but were also highly polarizing. Other corporations existed in either defiance or subjugation to them, and their goal was pretty much supremacy over EVE. They were pretty much “The Empire” of Space Games.

      The other major faction was the Goonswarm – The Something Awful online community. Their community existed outside of EVE, and they were really just there to fuck around and have fun being aggressive and screwing everyone else over. They flat out didn’t give a damn about reputation, economic or political dominance, or anything else that most EVE players cared about in the organized game. They were there to blow shit up and cause chaos, with their values and culture being fundamentally foreign to EVE’s system…. making them surprisingly comparable to Orks, Bugs, or Zerg.

      However… and I can’t remember the order, but Band of Brothers got destroyed by espionage from within. A Goonswarm spy managed to make his way to the top of their organization… and then just dissolved the whole damn organization, leaving everything FUBAR and preventing it from ever rising to be a power again. A few months later, something similar happened to Goonswarm. (And it’s possible that without the monolithic BoB to screw over, a lot of Goonswarm players just lost interest in the game)… so with the loss of its biggest shit-stirrers and empire-builders, everything fell to tepid complacency.

      1. Decius says:

        The way the Goonswarm spy got to the top of BoB was with real-money transactions.

        Specifically, they paid the ‘defector’ cash in the range of thousands of USD.

      2. Boobah says:

        Well, something calling itself ‘Goonswarm Federation’ is dominating the lower-left hand corner of the alliance map Bob linked; since the page is called ‘Daily Sov Maps’ I assume it’s current. And the center top has an alliance called ‘Fraternity.’ Yes, with the period in the name; don’t know if it’s actually related to BoB or not.

        My favorite name on that map is ‘Test Alliance Please Ignore’

        1. Cannongerbil says:

          Test alliance is the reddit alliance, and is one of the major powers in eve right now. I don’t know what sartharina is talking about, because goonswarm never fell, and basically grew and grew until it became what Band of brothers was in the old days.

          BoB still technically exists under the name of kenzoku, but they’ve long since stopped being a major power in the game.

  2. Ander says:

    I’m interested to read future posts expounding more on the “second-tier”-ness. The quality and learning curve of EVE has for me always been dwarfed by its longevity and lack of competition, but it’s done something right. I’m looking forward to seeing what it does wrong explained.

  3. Joe says:

    EVE is one of those games that’s really interesting to hear/read about, but I’d have to be insane to think about playing it. Not an original thought, I know. Furthermore, there have been a lot of crafting/PVP heavy games. They’re all on Steam. I have no idea if any are good or got the audience they deserve. Again, not my thing. But the one that seems to have lasted is Age of Conan. Launched in 2008 and still going. That said, from what I hear it isn’t as griefing-centric as EVE. Can anyone verity that?

    I suppose the big question, what is it about the toxicity of EVE that keeps people coming back? I’m prone to arguing about Star Wars, but I don’t need to spend money/X hours a week on it. Furthermore, I don’t risk being backstabbed by a staunch mole.

    1. Kylroy says:

      “I suppose the big question, what is it about the toxicity of EVE that keeps people coming back?”

      Dirty secret of a lot of PvP games: there’s a nontrivial number of players who *enjoy* social environments most gamers ( and nearly all human beings) consider toxic. EVE is the game where, when a developer received a note from a player who was really depressed and having a difficult time, said developer pulled it out during a convention to essentially point and laugh at the sad guy.

      1. raifield says:

        CCP also secretly intervened on the behalf of large player corporations, gifting them with ships, money, and equipment. I believe they also passed “intelligence” to their favorite warring corps that was only available from within the game’s management interface.

        I remember it was a huge scandal when it came out that Band of Brothers was receiving help from CCP. I know there were others. What a strange society that game built around itself.

        1. Tom says:

          Holy blap! That’s very nearly the straight up, actual and entire plot of Frank Herbert’s Dune, with CCP in the role of Emperor!

      2. Joe says:

        My god. I’ve heard plenty of terrible gamer stories in the past, but that’s a contender for the worst. Did the poor guy pull through?

      3. Distec says:

        It was not a dev that did this, but a player (likely the most infamous) and member of the CSM: The Mittani.
        It was really scummy. I just want to make sure fingers are getting pointed in the right direction here.

        1. Joe says:

          Yes, I’ve heard of him. He seems to enjoy the toxic environment. But I still want to know about the other guy. That’s the kind of thing that could push someone over the edge. Did he find a more mentally healthy environment?

          1. Decius says:

            IIRC he was not seen in EvE again. But if someone told me that happened to him, I’d tell him to quit playing and never go back.

            1. Joe says:

              I hope he managed to recover. That’s just a depressing and infuriating story.

    2. ivan says:

      The one I always think about is Rust. Rust was an MMO, far as I understand (or still is, iunno if it’s still running). From what I heard, ppl willingly formed groups in that, co-operated, to survive and prosper. And this was without set quests, raids, dungeons, or anything within the mechanics or structure of the game giving the players a reward or incentivive to do so. They just chose to, because the systems of the game made it a reasonable choice to make, to have more fun.

      Having said that, tho, it was an indie level survival and crafting-a-thon, which didn’t appeal to me. But the ideas there do appeal, so I guess I’m a bit like Bob in that I am interested to see what could be done, but isn’t. To paraphrase a good quote from Jim Sterling; “People seem to have forgotten, that MMO is not a genre. It’s a delivery method.”

      1. Tom says:

        “They just chose to, because the systems of the game made it a reasonable choice to make, to have more fun. ”

        Possibly the most extreme example of this would be the legendary Captain Grommet (look him up on Youtube under “The MOST INSPIRING leader EVER”), a man who, with nothing more than sheer force of personality and an indescribably terrible fake French accent (complete with random exclamations concerning baguettes), got a bunch of several score random strangers on the internet, of their own free will, to actually form ranks and use disciplined musket volley fire to win a battle in Holdfast. He actually got them to HOLD THEIR FIRE until he gave the word.

        Turns out that lining up with brightly coloured uniforms and taking turns blatting away at each other with iron discipline really is a very effective tactic when you have that level of firearms technology.

        1. Lino says:

          Oh yes! I remember that guy! I actually saw him once during someone’s stream! I loved Holdfast, too bad the game died. It was an original concept with so much potential!

      2. Agammamon says:

        God, Rust.

        I play a different zombie survival game – 7 Days to Die – and Rust players come by to check it out from time to time. They are crazily abusive on the Steam forums.

    3. The Puzzler says:

      Compare EVE to WoW. In WoW you basically grind and gradually power up until you hit the cap. Occasionally you find a cool rare item, but beyond that nothing particularly exciting ever happens. You can’t really hurt anyone or get hurt; nobody is ever more than mildly inconvenienced.

      In EVE you can participate in stories with real(ish) stakes. You can become famous(ish). You can participate in politics, win wars, wreck alliances, steal loot worth real-world money.

      If these things happen in WoW it’s due to a bug or password theft.

      From this perspective, WoW is bland and EVE is exciting. It’s not surprising that some people prefer EVE. (Although in terms of actual gameplay, EVE is mostly very dull. Point yourself at a star system, activate autopilot, and wait.)

      1. AndrewCC says:

        If someone managed to make a game that was fun to play as an individual pilot and you could make a real difference, and where overall tactics of a battle also mattered, so it’s significant to be a general, and where politics mattered so backstabbing and intrigue were also rewarding, a game where you could be either the Red Baron (fighter ace) or Rommel (brilliant tactician) or Bismark (politician) it would be quite a game to play. (For a different set of examples think Jamie, Tyrion and Tywin Lannister) EVE as far as I can tell can only do the last part well.
        Oh well, maybe Star Citizen…

        1. Decius says:

          The thing is, if you’re a general giving directions to a dozen individual pilots, they can’t each make a real difference in a single engagement.

          If it’s possible for a single hero to turn the entire course of a war, then the strategic layer is about recruiting and equipping those heroes.

          1. AndrewCC says:

            You missunderstood my examples, neither of the individual fighing skill examples I mentioned changed the course of wars, but they were still viewed as legendarily skilled and could command respect and great rewards.

    4. AzaghalsMask says:

      The same with me, which is why I helped kickstart the Eve Online History Book. I got it here but have not gotten around to reading it yet. If you’re looking for eve stories set in a more historical framework, based on interviews with coalition leaders and stuff like that, it could be the thing for you.

    5. Echo Tango says:

      I tried a free trial of EVE once back in college. I gave it up after like, half an hour of grinding for minerals. I didn’t have the guts to try the hostile PVP parts of the game. :S

      1. Chad Miller says:

        I had a similar experience and packed it in because I found the interface too obtuse. So obtuse that I had to ask general chat how to exit the game.

    6. Nate Winchester says:

      Agreed.

      This is also my opinion on warhammer 40k.

  4. Ninety-Three says:

    A dozen fortunes have been lost iterating on the World of Warcraft concept, but nothing comparable has happened here.

    Well duh. No one looks at the size of EVE’s playerbase and says to themselves “If we can make even half that much money, we’ll be rich!”

    1. Stephen says:

      This. I worked on a small budget MMO that was meant to be an EVE-style PVP MMO (only fantasy instead of space).

      EVE and WoW have the lock-in and iteration advantage. While they may be stuck with a ton of bad design choices made a decade and a half ago, they’ve also had all that time to add content and features. Anyone trying to compete needs to somehow convince players to pay for a game with a few years worth of development instead of nearly 20.

      If you put in enough money to have a big enough team to turn out a AAA game that’s visually pleasing and content-rich enough to attract a lot of players, you’re absolutely reliant on those players sticking around long enough to pay off your investors (which rarely happens). If you just hire a small team that can get by with a realistic playerbase, players will complain that you aren’t charging significantly less for what you have compared to the more robust, dominant games.

      That’s pretty much why nobody’s really started work on a AAA MMO for a decade, and a lot of the non-AAA attempts are still in alpha or beta years later.

      1. Kylroy says:

        Did the MMO you were working on ever launch?

        I’m not sure I would have called EVE a AAA project at any point. What they did have was the sandboxiest sandbox MMO available in the early 00s, and that was enough to get the lock-in advantage you mention. The fact that the leading sandbox MMO is less popular than any of the top 5 theme park MMOs is all the explanation I need about why nobody ever tried to make an “EVE-killer”.

        1. Stephen says:

          It did, and is technically still in open beta with a skeleton live team five years later.

          I think EVE could probably have been considered AAA about ten years ago, when they had the budgets to try all the in-station tech that they were developing for the World of Darkness MMO. I’m not sure what their finances and production values are like now. But that’s the advantage of being the dominant product for multiple years of recurring charges: even if your audience never gets big, you can ultimately roll a lot of art and tech into your game just by accumulation of month-over-month income and work that can eventually dwarf what even a bigger publisher can put into a couple years of development.

          1. Decius says:

            Hi Steven! PFO just launched into Open Enrollment this year.

  5. raifield says:

    I’ve played EVE Online since 2006 or so. I just this year acquired the ultimate EVE Online achievement of no longer playing EVE Online.

    I didn’t play for 14 years straight through. I played on and off with several characters throughout the years until I finally settled on one industrial-orientated character in 2016 or so that I created in 2014. I formed a one-person corporation that bought and refined ore & ice into minerals & fuel. It was profitable, I had the “end game” industrial Freighter, and life was good, if somewhat predictable.

    I finally quit when I lost a relatively small and unimportant ship to a couple of gate campers. One of them simply “drove” a small vessel into mine repeatedly, which causes your vessel to automatically turn away to avoid a collision (collisions are not modeled in EVE Online). By doing this over and over they prevent your ship from moving or push your ship to a different location, whichever they prefer. You can do nothing about this.

    I would not have minded getting caught and killed normally, certainly not my first time, but that a game mechanic that glaring was still in the game years after players were clamoring for its removal just sort of struck a nerve. I announced to my favorite chat channel that I was quitting the game and offered to gift “my stuff”. I sent 20 billion game credits to the first person who claimed it, logged off, uninstalled, and cancelled my subscription.

    The body of the game has really been undergoing rapid ossification in the past two years or so, probably around the time CCP was acquired by Pearl Abyss. New tiers of ships, new equipment, but the game is seriously showing its age and limitations. Any other company would’ve been at “EVE Online 2” by now, but not CCP. I have a ton of ideas for such a game, especially around the economic side of things, but we’ll never see that game.

    Now I play Elite Dangerous. It’s a crappy MMO but a nice low-key spaceship simulator. More enjoyable for me these days.

    1. Sartharina says:

      Any other company would’ve been at “EVE Online 2” by now

      No MMO has ever managed to successfully retain its playerbase by making a sequel since Everquest 2. Guild Wars 2 alienates most Guild Wars 1 players, but has managed to stand on its own innovations. Planetside 2 managed to get new blood, but the Planetside 1 veterans stayed away.

      Also – EVE Online isn’t a unique game, except for the fact that it managed to pull off being an MMO. There were countless Space Sim games around at the same time as EVE, such as the Elite and X series.

  6. ooli says:

    I barely played EVE but I found at least one MMO heavily geared toward pvp and realm building:
    Shadowbane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowbane#Gameplay

    It was discontinued, but some managed to keep it alive: https://morloch.shadowbaneemulator.com/index.php?title=Getting_Started

    1. Allen says:

      Another example (and my personal catnip for many years) is Puzzle Pirates, which is still holding on last I checked. But a lot of the Eve descriptions sound familiar to me – everything consolidates into a couple huge “teams”, who all eventually decide it’s better to not fight and prevent any young upstarts from getting a foothold.

    2. Duffy says:

      Crowfall is being made by some of the Shadowbane devs. Their attempting to fix the stagnation aspect of such realm building games by resetting “campaigns” and having definitive win conditions and rewards along with different rule sets. It also utilizes a passive training system to give your account some permanent progression despite the campaign resets.

      It’s approaching beta now, still got some design issues to smooth out and balance of course, but it’s pretty close to locked in features for launch.

  7. I’d enjoy a more pvp-based game (DDO is 100% pve), BUT I don’t like the stupid one-note PvP you get in most games where you just kill other people’s characters. That’s boring.

    What I’d want is a game where you compete with other players to *complete complex tasks* that require organization, time management, and cooperation. You CAN kill the other players, but that’s NOT how you win.

    I keep peeking in at Crowfall because it sounded like maybe some of that was present in that game, but it’s been in beta/early access for so long I don’t know what to think.

    1. Richard says:

      Surely that’s really PvE based around cooperation, but having and friendly-fire?

      1. Sleeping Dragon says:

        It could be but it doesn’t have to be, cooperative PvE is certainly one form of positive interaction mechanics but it doesn’t have to be the only one.

        1. It depends on whether the “other team” competing with you to complete objectives is other players or NPC monsters.

          I would LOVE to have a Shadowrun MMO where you go on shadowruns where both (or several) teams get the same objective and you duke it out to see who wins, especially if you could optionally join the other team as a mole to try and make them fail. This would be especially neat if there’s a general sub-goal of not setting off alarms or otherwise making hordes of guards descend upon you.

          1. And there’d be stuff you could steal or loot along the way and XP for doing sub-tasks like hacking in or bypassing guards etc. so even if you don’t win the task you still gained something for playing.

            1. Sleeping Dragon says:

              Interesting in that my first thought was “the obvious problem would be people who only play for themselves and spec in such a way so as to be able to rush the objective leaving everybody else to deal with the mess” but then I followed that with the thought that the obvious solution to this is a some kind or rep system which would actually reflect what would happen within a runners’ community: if you don’t play nice with teh team nobody wants to run with you.

    2. The Puzzler says:

      EVE is pretty close to that. A player I knew quit when he realised his entire experience of the game involved moving data around in spreadsheets instead of flying spaceships. Once you’ve managed the logistics of having a large group of people gathering the right resources to build the right fleet over a period of months, blowing up the enemy is a mere formality.

    3. Sleeping Dragon says:

      There is definitely demand for this kind of gameplay, the problem is making it persistent (thus making progression meaningful) without running into the EVE situation where those who dominate once tend to stay in the dominant position. Every title I can think of that does something in this style either resets the game periodically, treats this as temporary mechanics (and now the community needs to pool their resources together and gather one stupidillion of resource X) or, well, is EVE.

    4. Khizan says:

      I played MUDs that had this kind of thing back in the day, and in my experience this is what happens:

      People who don’t care about completing the complex tasks but do care about killing people will rampage over the world as a horde. Their lack of concern for the complex tasks will give them a huge advantage, because they will be free to optimize entirely for murder and will not need to allocate manpower to completing those tasks. They’ll be a relentless swarm smashing against the enemy because all they want to do is fight and the battle itself is the reward.

      When the enemy has been beaten so badly they no longer care to try opposing them, they will complete the tasks and declare themselves the winner.

      I know this from leading one of those hordes.

      1. AndrewCC says:

        Ah, I see you’re a Chosen of the Chaos Gods.

    5. BlueHorus says:

      What I’d want is a game where you compete with other players to *complete complex tasks* that require organization, time management, and cooperation. You CAN kill the other players, but that’s NOT how you win.

      Wasn’t this Left 4 Dead*? From what I gathered (and played), PVP was prohibitively hard and counterproductive, so you were obliged to work with the other players.

      *Well, not exactly complex tasks, sure. ‘SHOOT ZOMBIES’, ‘SHOOT ZOMBIES GOOD’ and ‘SHOOT LOTS OF ZOMBIES GOOD’ kind of covers it…

    6. Duffy says:

      Crowfall just put their final major feature patch on the test server. Once their happy with the stability it going to the “live” servers and their gonna start beta and focus on stress test and polish for launch. Their well funded through to launch due to relying on more private backing than crowdfunding.

    7. beleester says:

      A Tale in the Desert doesn’t have combat, but it’s about competing to complete complicated tasks – generally some combination of crafting, trading, and convincing other players to work for you.

  8. Steve C says:

    Fun Fact: “The Expanse” was originally going to be one such MMO. It fell apart early in MMO development. Ty Franck created and kept all the world building that was going to be used in that video game. Daniel Abraham played a table top RPG with Ty based on it and loved the work Ty had done. So together they came up with The Expanse. Which is my favorite sci-fi show and novel series by a wide margin.

  9. Lino says:

    Typolice:

    participate the nullsec metagame

    Should be “participate in”.

    Also, yay new Bob Case series! I’ve always been interested when reading about EVE. What’s always turned me off of playint it, though, are all the spreadsheets and micromanagement.

    I already have a job that requires me to look at spreadsheets all day. I don’t need another one.

    Also, I prefer playing solo, so all the guild-based content has never appealed to me.

  10. Scerro says:

    EVE is an interesting game. I played it back around 2012-2015, it definitely does some different things that you don’t see in many high profile games. From what I’ve been hearing about Albion Online though, that game is practically the same hi/low/null sec mechanics, just with a different genre.

    However, I think the final straw for EVE is that it’s not mechanically interesting to play. It has also shied so far from implementing ANY form of even sanctioned PvP. The largest issue is that the day to day gameplay is pretty boring, and most fights turn into a stand off that feels like an extreme waste of time, people tend to not engage unless they KNOW they’ll win, and those who can’t gauge who will win, stop playing.

    It’s an interesting experiment though.

    1. Tuck says:

      The big problem with Albion Online is that it lacks goals. I played it for a while, pretty much maxed out on the overpopulated safe zones, and after being ganked and looted a few times when trying to check out the higher end content I didn’t feel much motivation to continue. Maybe it’ll improve over time?

      1. Scerro says:

        Doesn’t EVE also lack goals? Once you join an alliance and hold a section of space, all that’s really left is lulzy funtimes and massive battles that show up a couple times a year.

        My point is that they’re extremely similar games. Albion has the bonus that the combat is actually fun on a mechanical level, where EvE really isn’t.

        1. Tuck says:

          Eve has NPC quests/missions, that’s all I meant by goals.

  11. Xander77 says:

    “You still have to pay for the ammo, but aside from that, nullsec is the wild west of space.”
    What?

    1. Chuck says:

      Ammunition for ships casts money. In fact, for the big ships, it can cost more than some of the smaller ships, which can make for some touch economic choices during certain wars when a massive capital ship is attacked by hundreds of smaller vessels.

      1. Richard says:

        Ammo has a cost in pretty much all games that have resource gathering components.

        Eg in Minecraft a basic arrow costs 1 flint, 1 stick and 1 feather.
        Upgrading an arrow to a poison arrow then costs 1/8th of a poison potion.

        EVE online is basically an economic and logistical simulator.
        So you don’t have to harvest the raw materials and manufacture your railgun (or whatever) rounds yourself, instead you can buy the raw materials – or indeed the completed ammunition.

        In many ways this is an example of why “hi-tech” militaries in the real world can (and have been) defeated by militaries because the hi-tech military hardware was very expensive to manufacture and/or repair, or needed specialist parts not possible to fabricate in the field.

      2. RFS-81 says:

        I’m pretty sure the point was that ammo also wasn’t free in the real wild west.

        1. The Puzzler says:

          Ammo was expensive in the old west, but you got one of those pistols with infinite ammo it wasn’t really an issue any more.

        2. Richard says:

          Oh, so that whooshing sound was the point flying over my head? ¯\_(?)_/¯

  12. Thomas says:

    One of the best and worst things about EVE is I stopped following EVE a few years ago but I still recognise most of the names on the sov map.

    Best, because that’s a genuine human piece of living history. The Imperium is an accomplishment of the work of so many people.

    Worst because it’s been years and nothings changed. Eve is now stable enough that everyone realises they’re living in Oceania and all their conflicts are fake conflicts designed to keep the populace in line.

    And best again because it’s kind of awesome that a someone recreated Big Brother in a computer game.

    1. BlueHorus says:

      The Imperium is an accomplishment of the work of so many people. Worst because it’s been years and nothings changed. Eve is now stable…

      It’s weird. It must take genuine effort to maintain a stable intergalactic state in a fictional universe. On the one hand, devotion to an MMO is a thing I know about, something that people do…

      …but at the same time: how is this fun?

      I’ve just never gotten the appeal of this kind of gaming. Not that I know everything about how people should have their fun, but it’s still amazing to me. Like, paying, for a second job?

      …BTW is there still a corporation called Goon Squad? One of the few things I remember.
      That and a faction that was called OMG PIRATES, which seemed like what you’d expect from an MMO…

      1. Nimrandir says:

        how is this fun?

        I wondered the same thing when I heard about the folks playing Ultima Online as pure crafter/merchant types. I have no idea if they’re still at it today, or if new sedentary artisans have taken their places.

      2. The Puzzler says:

        You’re probably thinking of Goonswarm. They’re still around.

  13. Sleeping Dragon says:

    Ah EVE, I dodged a bullet by never, ever playing this one. The thing is I’m probably the kind of person this game would really appeal to. I like working towards long term goals, I like the feeling of “doing my part”. I’d make a great cog in one of the alliance machines spending my days mining out some asteroid.

  14. RubberBandMan says:

    I’ve seen quite a lot of ‘players only’ massive online games, but they were all rather low tech. Things like Urban Dead, Nexus War (before the dev had to quit) and so on. A game where basically everything is player created, or at worst, player found, is very interesting. You set it up and then the players take it from there. You get a lot of roleplay when you decide you’re going to be pirates on the ground or a shambling party horde that just happens to be zombies.

    Eve Online is the only real big budget game that’s used this system, and I still don’t know why. We know players love fighting each other as all the battle royals and Call of Duties show, and we know that people love building things with long logistical issues, like with Minecraft, Rimworld, ect.

    I suppose it’s because no one was able to get funding for it. There is no ‘Eve-online’ money to make investors give even a modest start up to try out the concept they love, and no clear way to transition from another game type to Eve style (See how destiny and other looter shooters moving to free to play after they failed to make money, and thus going into Warframe’s business model).

    No room for AA games I suppose if you’re doing something online, it has to be a huge massive hit, or die with a whimper in two years after sucking all the possible money out of the players to recoup your losses. It’s a shame.

    1. Scerro says:

      Ehh, EVE doesn’t go off a “player only” sort of system. Community, Story, and that sort of stuff is player only, but items, ships, and so on are NOT.

      You’re also overlooking the problem with players creating items and buildings, in that profanity and the community is nearly impossible to police, and you DO have to have some sort of policing.

      There are lots of interesting promising games, they just never make it out. The A and AA gaming scene is practically dead, and for a fairly good reason – most games are online and take huge resources and talent to pull off. Warframe was really only able to take off because they had really good talent AND luck to move into the space where they did. The NoClip documentary is fantastic ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOE6528pwFc ). I also think they had a huge advantage of not being in an environment where there were many other game creation jobs to take.

      It’s been quite interesting to see crowdfunding get a lot of games to show up as finished (but rough) products. They probably never would have seen the light of day otherwise.

    2. Panzeh says:

      I don’t think the players loving to fight each other and compete and the players wanting to make really nice production lines and build nice things are really looking for the same thing or for these things to be mixed. I think larger MP games have rendered much of the appeal of MMO games obsolete- a battle royale game with a hundred people on a big map does the PVP game with much more interesting gameplay than watching numbers go up and having to get a bunch of levels before you can actually do something.

      Games are just more specialized and better at delivering a thing than MMOs do. What happened is that a little bit of MMO stuff kinda seeped into every other game- particularly the progression aspects, which appeal to the addict in all of us.

  15. SpammyV says:

    The emergent stories aspect of EVE makes me think of Planetside 2 vs. other multiplayer FPSes. Instead of everything being smaller and more instanced, being part of pushes and struggles across a larger map is what drew me in. Joining in massive armored columns, or watching huge platoons all load up in flying transports, or defending a tower against sieges and holding on because someone said in the team chat that their buddies are coming from a nearby base with a lot of tanks to break the siege are why I still end up thinking of Planetside 2 more than other multiplayer FPSes. The fact that these things are not scripted attack/defense maps but generated by players organizing makes me miss Planetside 2 even more than TF2.

    Actually, now that I think on it, is it just limited exposure or has online multiplayer gotten smaller over the years? More instanced maps, MOBAs or MOBA-inspired gameplay styles, trying to gear things to roughly 30-minute maps?

    1. Scerro says:

      Planetside 2 really didn’t make too many splashes in my realm of gaming, even though it seemed like it would have had a lot of opportunity. The largest barrier to me was the poor performance (even on a ~$1200 rig of the day), and getting stomped by level 80+ (?) players with fancy guns ruined the experience.

      A similar game might actually do extremely well today, especially with Streamers to push it. (TBH Streamers can push ANYTHING and sell it.) Back in the day though, ESports was huge with Starcraft 2 and MOBAs, and that was a huge amount of the visibility for games.

      The other thing about BRs is they allow multiple playstyles, and there are multiple styles of play are are valid. Wanna be super aggressive? Go for it. Wanna hoard good weapons and beat players with weaponry? Do it. Sneaky is great. Wanna play terrain advantage? Sure. It allows for “older” gamers that don’t want to trust their reflexes to play smart.

      BR expanded the size of multiplayer for me…

      I really think the recent breakthroughs have been about wide appeal and multiplayer.

  16. Karma The Alligator says:

    Ugh, tried to play EVE a few years ago, because some of my friends had just started and they were loving it. Didn’t last more than a couple of days. I found the whole thing so boring.

  17. Mephane says:

    So why discuss this second-tier, seventeen-year-old MMO at all? Because EVE Online, to me, is the genre’s most notable example of the road not taken. It is, like the title of this post, The Other Kind of MMO. Nearly every other developer focuses on PVE content, with PVP existing inside a walled-off warren, if it exists at all. My personal hunch is that there’s significant unmet demand here. Whoever successfully iterates on the EVE template is going to win all the marbles, or at the very least turn a profit.

    I believe that the rise of the battle royale genre has already filled that very demand. It distills open world PvP down to its core elements (skill, experience, map knowledge, teamwork where applicable) while stripping it of the usual grind that comes with the MMO genre. You get all the thrill of the open world where anyone might kill you any time, without the need to grind for levels and gear in order to be competitive (and thus the danger of losing the fruit of all that grind).

    1. Iunnrais says:

      The thing is, what appeals to me in a sandbox MMO game is building something collaboratively and having to protect it. And I don’t mean fortnite building… those are temporary structures for immediate tactical purposes. EVE’s immediate tactical game is… not all that interesting. But the logistics that feeds into the war machine is fantastic. The problem is that if using those logistics is boring, then the logistics itself loses some shine.

      I’ve heard that the old Star Wars MMO had some really good sandbox elements, and non-combat things to do as well. You could be a merchant, and there was actual deep gameplay involved in being a merchant, since player equipment broke down Breath of the Wild style, AND crafting blueprints and resource locations would run out, so not only was it a case of people actually have to keep buying stuff, but the merchants had to keep working to keep themselves stocked.

  18. Son of Valhalla says:

    As an unprofessional economist, I can honestly say that Eve Online’s economic system is pretty awesome. I’ve spent time as an amateur constantly dying at the hands of capital ships that Trump my lowly peasant ship. This, of course, means I never get anywhere and these big ships steal my resources. But it’s okay! Because that’s what you do in the game. You keep trying no matter how economically not viable it is.

  19. Steven says:

    “Nearly every other developer focuses on PVE content, with PVP existing inside a walled-off warren, if it exists at all. My personal hunch is that there’s significant unmet demand here. Whoever successfully iterates on the EVE template is going to win all the marbles, or at the very least turn a profit.”

    Hi Bob, have you played Sea of Thieves? It is basically founded on the road not taken. The entire game is about distilling an MMO PVP risk versus reward gameplay into smaller scale hour and a half adventures.

    Sea of Thieves recently just released an update the doubles down on the risk versus reward element to encourage further PVE player and PVP player interactions. This game exemplifies the road not taken and has seemingly made a profit – as it is Microsoft’s flag ship title for their game pass subscription service.

  20. Mr. Wolf says:

    They appear to have one of these mysterious systemic dysfunctions that burrow inside the intestines of certain companies, preventing them from being able to complete projects.

    Yes, quite.

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