Spider-Man Part 12: Silver Sable

By Shamus Posted Thursday Apr 18, 2019

Filed under: Retrospectives 89 comments

At the end of the attack on city hall, the camera pans over to reveal the horrible truth that the leader of the demons is actually… the guy we already guessed it was! Dun dun duuuun!

We cut to a week later. There’s a funeral scene for Officer Davis, and Peter Parker and Miles Morales meet. Over the coming chapters they’ll make friends and Peter will get Miles a job working at FEAST.

When the funeral is over, Pete changes to Spider-Man and asks Yuri if the police have located Martin Li yet.

Hang On. When Did You Figure That Out?

This is the big reveal that Martin Li is the leader of the Demons. Peter Parker is a block away, behind a bunch of debris, unconscious. There's no way he saw this.
This is the big reveal that Martin Li is the leader of the Demons. Peter Parker is a block away, behind a bunch of debris, unconscious. There's no way he saw this.

It feels like we missed a pretty big story beat here. How does Spider-Man know that Martin Li is the leader of the Demons? Yes, that fact was revealed to the audience in the previous cutscene, but Peter wasn’t anywhere near Li when that happened. Moreover, Pete was unconscious at the time.

At some point in the last week, Peter Parker discovered that his friend – who is also Aunt May’s employer – is a mass-murdering terrorist. That’s a really big deal! It’s also the answer to the mystery he’s been chasing for the last couple of missions. And yet this discovery took place off-screen?

This muddles Peter’s bonding with Miles. He gets Miles a job working at FEAST despite knowing that the guy who runs FEAST is the same guy who killed Miles’ father? That’s like finding out one of your friends is a traumatized 9/11 survivor, so you get her a job at Osama Bin Laden’s soup kitchen. What the hell, Pete? What made you think this is a good idea?

Normally I chalk stuff like this up to lazy writers who aren’t paying attention, or developers who don’t really care about the story except as a vehicle for trailer-friendly cutscenes. I can’t really say that here. I have many stylistic gripes with how the story is written and presented, but they’re mostly a matter of taste. Even if I’m not crazy about all of the writer’s choices, I freely admit they know what they’re doing. Scenes are economical, dialog pulls its weight, setups and payoffs are properly connected, stakes are established, etc. This writer knows how to build a story and get us interested.

I don't mean to be rude, but could you folks hurry things along? Given the death toll, I imagine there are a lot of people waiting in line to hold a funeral.
I don't mean to be rude, but could you folks hurry things along? Given the death toll, I imagine there are a lot of people waiting in line to hold a funeral.

This apparent oversight wasn’t caused by carelessness or incompetence. So what did cause it? I have a few theories:

  • In the original E3 demo, Mr. Negative appeared during the big set-piece helicopter chase that I talked about a couple of weeks ago. I assumed they just put him in the demo so they had a supervillain to show off for E3. But it’s also possible that originally he was supposed to be revealed much sooner. Maybe there was some last-minute shuffling around of plot points and story beats and they didn’t have time to make a new version of the reveal, so it wound up getting cut.
  • I only got the standard edition of the game, not the deluxe edition, or the super-primo-deluxe, or whatever the publisher calls the exorbitantly-priced “The Entire Game Edition”. I know there are a couple of extra missions I’m missing on account of going with the “cheap” version. It would be super-scummy to put major plot points into the upscale editions, but I suppose it’s possibleI doubt it. I’m sure I would have heard about it by now..
  • I know the developer is planning on releasing DLC at some point. Maybe that “One Week Later” time-cut is where they plan on putting this new content, and maybe it will fill in this detail? Again, that would be pretty scummy, but I suppose it’s possibleI think all the DLC is out now, and this doesn’t seem to be the case..
  • Maybe the writer decided the audience-reveal was enough? The Osborn rally ends with a shot of Mr. Li commanding the Demons in his Mr. Negative form. At this point the audience knows who the bad guy is, and maybe the writer felt that having a scene where Peter caught up to what we already know was too much of a snooze?

I dunno. It’s not a serious problem, but it is a perplexing omission no matter how we look at it.

Tracking Down Martin Li

It's a little harder to contrive door-opening puzzles for Spider-Man than for Batman, because Spider-Man is so strong. Here the designer made the gate electrified to explain why we couldn't just tear it off its hinges. I appreciate them taking the time to justify stuff like this.
It's a little harder to contrive door-opening puzzles for Spider-Man than for Batman, because Spider-Man is so strong. Here the designer made the gate electrified to explain why we couldn't just tear it off its hinges. I appreciate them taking the time to justify stuff like this.

Spider-Man needs to prove to the police that Li is behind the Demon gang. We get a couple of missions where he and MJ work together to explore some of Li’s properties around the city.

The game is very clearly borrowing the rhythm of the Arkham games. You’ll do a stealth section. Then the game will force you out of stealth for a brawl. Once the mooks are snoozing, you’ll get some sort of door-opening puzzle in the form of “Use your detective vision / Spidey vision to find all the switches and then use your Batarangs / webs to activate them”. When the game designer is feeling devious they might put one of the switches on the ceiling or behind an easily-moved box, but for the most part the puzzle isn’t so much a brain-teaser as a momentary breather.

Once you’ve gone through the three gameplay modes you’ll get a cutscene and the cycle begins again. It’s not a bad formula, although I really wish the Spider-Man puzzles had a little more ambition.

Spider-Man finds these plans for truck bombs, which are pictures of trucks with bombs in the back.
Spider-Man finds these plans for truck bombs, which are pictures of trucks with bombs in the back.

After a few rounds of our three gameplay modes we reach Li’s staging area with all of his nefarious plans. Li and his men are all Chinese-speaking immigrants, so I guess it’s lucky they drew straightforward diagrams of their schemes so Spidey is able to make sense of them. Along with the plans, Spider-Man finds explosives, weapons, and even designs for truck bombs.

Again, here we have a supervillain that doesn’t feel very supervillain-ish. His methodology is straight-up terrorism, with mass murder being both his goal and his methodology. His “costume” is just a business suit. His most dangerous power is brainwashing. His secret “lairs” are just regular offices and warehouses. Within the story he doesn’t even get a supervillain name. This guy is not a Spider-Man villain. This is a villain for someone with oversized guns that takes themselves too seriously.

Luckily, such a person enters the story at this point. Unluckily, she’s not on Spider-Man’s side, everything she does makes matters worse, and she’s ultimately useless to the conclusion of the story.

Silver Sable

The only thing worse than murderous authoritarian paramilitary thugs is INCOMPETENT  murderous authoritarian paramilitary thugs. Come on, guys. At least torture the Demons for information before you execute them in public. If you're going to be evil, at least be practical about it.
The only thing worse than murderous authoritarian paramilitary thugs is INCOMPETENT murderous authoritarian paramilitary thugs. Come on, guys. At least torture the Demons for information before you execute them in public. If you're going to be evil, at least be practical about it.

When Spider-Man emerges from Li’s secret lair / storage room, he runs into a couple of Sable agents, who look like space marines but talk like rank-and-file Fisk goons. To be clear: “Silver Sable” is a hero in the Marvel universe and “Sable International” is her goon squad of mercenaries.

The Sable agents decide to execute a couple of helpless Demons who have already been defeated by Spider-Man. Spidey intervenes and knocks them out. It would be nice to do this in gameplay, but instead it’s all handled in cutscenes.

At this point Silver Sable drops in and kicks Spider-Man’s ass.

Times Silver Sable has defeated Spider-Man in a cutscene: 1

Silver Sable feels like the writer’s pet… villain? Antihero? I have no idea. She wins every fight with Spider-Man. She also wins every argument with Spider-Man by getting the last word and making all the threats. She gets character development she doesn’t deserve and takes up screen time without being strictly relevant.

In a few hours, Spider-Man will have a fight with the entire Sinister Six roster at the same time. Rhino, Vulture, Electro, Doctor Octopus, Scorpion, and Martin the Terrorist. He does pretty well and manages to hold his own before they overwhelm him. And yet somehow this regular human is able to best Spider-Man repeatedly.

Even ignoring pedantic nerd-bait arguments over power level, this character just isn’t cool enough to repeatedly best our hero.

This is what Silver Sable is supposed to look like:

Actually, can I play as this character? She seems like a better foil for a bunch of terrorists.
Actually, can I play as this character? She seems like a better foil for a bunch of terrorists.

Yeah, that’s a very comic-book style design. With her skin-tight suit and over-sized guns she’s coming from the same stylistic space as classic Frank CastleAlthough I was always pretty resistant to the idea that the Punisher ought to be much of a threat to the web-head, who can supposedly dodge bullets and throw cars. But that’s another argument.. That’s a wild look and I can imagine a comic where someone like this can keep up with a superhero. But that’s not the Silver Sable we get. This is what Silver Sable looks like in the game:

Wow. That's really boring and uninspired.
Wow. That's really boring and uninspired.

That’s terrible. It looks like Aunt May decided to cosplay as Switch from The Matrix. This constipated bore has no reason to be winning fights against A-list superheroes. Once again, the grounded visuals are holding this game back.

Mayor Osborn hired Silver Sable and her vast army of paramilitary thugs after the bombing. I think she’s supposed to be a foil for Spider-Man, but the cutscene just established that her goons are morons that execute prisoners for no reason. Silver Sable is their leader, which means Silver Sable is effectively a supervillain in this game. Except, nobody treats her like one. Spider-Man doesn’t even tell Officer Yuri about the attempted execution. Does she know? Does she care?

At least in this scene Spidey gets to dunk on her a bit. Later scenes with her are lacking Spider-quips, which makes them a lot worse.
At least in this scene Spidey gets to dunk on her a bit. Later scenes with her are lacking Spider-quips, which makes them a lot worse.

At any rate, you’re supposed to make your villain cool BEFORE they beat the protagonist. You don’t make them cool BY defeating the protagonist. You can’t steal coolness. It can only be earned. This isn’t Kai Leng levels of terrible or anything, but we’re sort of headed in that direction.

I’ll have more to say about Silver Sable as this plot thread develops. For now let’s just move on.

Pete, Are You not Paying Attention?

Hi Aunt May. Just checking in. Martin Li hasn't stopped by to massacre everyone, has he? No? Great. No need to worry. I was just asking for no reason.
Hi Aunt May. Just checking in. Martin Li hasn't stopped by to massacre everyone, has he? No? Great. No need to worry. I was just asking for no reason.

After discovering that Martin Li plans to attack points all over the city, Spider-Man has a phone conversation with MJ. She points out that Aunt May is working for the man they think bombed city hall, and MJ quite sensibly asks, “You don’t think she’s in danger, do you?”

Spider-Man replies with – and this is not hyperbole –  the stupidest line in the entire game. He says, “No. Li’s only got one target on his mind… Norman Osborn.”

Spider-Man, have you forgotten the terrorist attack – which you personally attended – where Li deliberately slaughtered a crowd of innocent civilians? You literally just now uncovered his plans for truck bombs. So far Li’s entire methodology has involved the deliberate targeting of innocents.

You dense bastard.

Martin Li is the weakest part of the entire game and I always felt like I was missing some detail from the comics. I really can’t get what the writer is doing with this character. His motivation is simple: Get revenge on Norman Osborn. And yet his methodology is so ridiculously over the top, contradictory, and convoluted to the point where nothing he did made sense to me. I understand that he’s torn between a good side and an evil side, but that doesn’t explain why his plans for getting revenge on Osborn need to involve the deaths of thousands or even millions of New Yorkers who aren’t Norman Osborn. What’s causing that? Is he crazy? Mind-controlled by a demon? Is he an idiot?

Even ignoring all of that, why doesn’t Peter notice?



[1] I doubt it. I’m sure I would have heard about it by now.

[2] I think all the DLC is out now, and this doesn’t seem to be the case.

[3] Although I was always pretty resistant to the idea that the Punisher ought to be much of a threat to the web-head, who can supposedly dodge bullets and throw cars. But that’s another argument.

From The Archives:

89 thoughts on “Spider-Man Part 12: Silver Sable

  1. Christopher says:

    Pete (and everyone else I guess) sees Li rolling up on the whole bombing without putting on his aura, for some reason. Perplexing is the right word.

    I suppose both his reveal and Sable’s presence is for convenience’s sake. Y’know, “now we don’t have to have a bunch of scenes with Li pretending not to be evil and Spidey being too dumb to notice”. “We need a whole new stronger squad of enemy types to freshen up the lategame, so we take the character with a merc squad and a history with Spidey. But she’s mostly his friend, isn’t she? Oh well, let’s just say her mercs only do as they want. They’re all rogue cells.”

    1. Olivier FAURE says:

      Darth Vader is Luke’s father!

      Can you imagine having Darth Vader as your father?

      I’m very glad Darth Vader isn’t my father.

      Darth Vader said

      Luke, I am your father.

      EDIT: What I’m saying is you should have been more careful when you copy-pasted that link.

      1. Christopher says:

        Jeez, did I get a single post right here today?


        Least now I know it’s right.

        1. Droid says:

          Should’ve rickrolled, TBH.

          1. Christopher says:


  2. CrimsonCutz says:

    Silver Sable really exposes how dumb it is when comic book writers try to have their “normal” people be relevant in a story with super dudes. Spider-Man can dodge bullets by sheer reflex on top of sensing them coming and is so strong that a regular human being shouldn’t be able to even knock him off balance if he was already teetering over the edge and is durable to the point that you’d be better off punching a cement wall than him because at least the wall won’t make fun of you. But then a random “well trained” human can randomly perform weird web assisted MMA take downs and make him take a gun pointed at him from ten feet away seriously. It’s the same thing with Kingpin earlier, except he only did it in one scene while she does it three times IIRC. It’s hard to take comic book stories seriously when the writers don’t even pay lip service to the idea that their world is supposed to be even vaguely coherent.

    Though on that note, I like Mister Not Positive a lot more than you do, in part because of how mundane his methods are. Given this guys main power is brainwashing people, it makes a lot of sense that he’d pursue his goal by forcefully enlisting an army of gang members to pull acts of terrorism. It doesn’t add up to me that the comic book world shouldn’t feature real world style terrorists, just with supernatural backing. As for why he pursues his goals in such a massively destructive way…I don’t know either. Although in fairness, if he just assassinated Norman Osborne quietly and cleanly he wouldn’t be much of a supervillain. It’s probably hypocritical given what I said above about coherent worlds and all but I give supervillains a fair bit of leeway on the whole Grand Master Plan that features seven layers of superfluous violence and complexity because the genre does kind of call for weird dudes doing crazy things so it feels good when a guy in a clown suit punches them a lot.

    1. Lars says:

      But then a random “well trained” human can randomly perform weird web assisted MMA take downs

      Just for curiosity: What do you think of Batman punching Killer Croc, Bane or Clayface?

      1. Shamus says:

        I realize I’m cutting in here, but I couldn’t resist the chance to loop back and talk about the concept of being “cool enough” to win a fight.

        In Batman, we see his personal motivation by way of his dead parents. We see his fanatical dedication to training. We see how he uses his vast wealth to construct these incredible gadgets. He is, in terms of the story, “cool enough”. The writer has paid the overhead to get us invested in this character and explain why he’s so powerful.

        Imagine an alternate world where there are no Batman comics. Instead, we have Detective Gordon, a morally pure and incredibly dedicated police detective. His big nemesis is Killer Croc. Gordon is no match for Croc, but he uses city resources to bring him down. He lures Croc into the subway and through electric fences, cattle prods, and with the help of many other officers, they manage to capture Croc.

        In a later issue Croc breaks free. Gordon formulates a new capture plan. But then some loony swoops in dressed like a bat and uses some bullshit science gizmos to incapacitate Croc. He’s all mystery and shadow and somehow manages to slip away from Gordon, even though Gordon is the BEST DETECTIVE in the city.

        We’d immediately resent this new character for being so massively OP. He hasn’t earned his place in the story. Rather than building up this new bat character by telling us his story, the writer made him “cool” by having our protagonist suddenly become incompetent. This bat-guy isn’t earning his coolness, he’s trying to steal it from our protagonist.

        To beat Spider-Man you either need a cool power set or a cool story, and this version of Sable has neither.

        1. Asdasd says:

          Holy –

          I’d never thought of it in these terms. Characters need a certain amount of investment/justification in order that we in the audience accept their agency in a story as legitimate. Writers have to manage who has ‘earned’ what with extraordinary care. It doesn’t matter about whether or not you can rationalise controversial developments as possible or plausible, because this is a question of what feels right for the story. I’d always thought that the ‘rule of cool’ was stupid, but I might have been taking it too literally all along. It explains a lot of things, but especially why late entrant characters in long running series often generate such audience aversion.

          1. Chad says:

            This is why, in ages past, “Superman versus Batman” was compelling enough to keep people having the conversation over and over, literally across multiple generations of humans: because although the two characters weren’t the same individual power level, each of them had been invested with enough character development that fans could put themselves in the constructed world and imagine how either side might get the upper hand.

            1. Blake says:

              And also (one of the reasons) why the Batman vs Superman movie excited nobody, because without already knowing this iteration of the characters they hadn’t yet earned that sort of fight.

        2. Ander says:

          Is…is there something like that Gordon story out there? Normie vs. supervillain, where the normie never gets super powers (or Batman’s vast wealth; work with me here)?

          1. Asdasd says:

            You could do worse than the Discworld books featuring Captain Vimes.

            1. Michael says:

              Vimes himself doesn’t really develop superpowers, but his underlings, except Colon, all have them. It’s not where I would go for a story about “defeating supervillains without using superpowers”.

              1. ElementalAlchemist says:

                What’s Nobby’s superpower?

                1. Adeon says:

                  Nobby’s superpower is that he’s an excellent scrounger/thief. A great example is at the end of Thud where they can’t find the device on any of the captured dwarves and are trying to figure out where it went. Nobby had picked it up “just in case” but didn’t say anything until Vimes told him to hand it over.

              2. Moridin says:

                Have you not read Snuff? Vimes DOES gain superpowers.

          2. John says:

            There was Gotham Central, a comic about detectives in Gotham. I didn’t read it, so I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think they went up against any super-powered supervillains. I think it was a little more like a cop show that just happened to be in the same city that Batman lived in.

            1. armagrodden says:

              The GCPD in Gotham Central went up against a bunch of Batman villains, like the Joker, Two-Face, and Mr. Freeze. A few of the more “super” villains were involved, but in those cases I seem to recall the comic being less about “taking this guy down” and more about “containing the disaster.” Batman’s role in the comic is interesting as well.

              This discussion reminds me of one I had with my sister after she saw a version of Count of Monte Cristo from Albert Mondego’s point of view. Without the audience buy-in of meeting Dantes before he becomes the Count and suffering with him in the Chateau d’If, Monte Cristo is just a monster who drops out of the sky and starts burning down everyone’s lives.

          3. Christopher says:

            I dunno if this is the normal you’re looking for exactly, but I think some of the appeal of the Metal Gear Solid games is Snake as this regular soldier fighting people in Doctor Octopus suits, in tanks, in giant robotic t-rexes, with psychic powers, that control bees, that have lightning or fire powers etc. You might be a “legendary soldier”, but you’re specifically legendary because you managed to beat these incredible opponents with nothing but regular weaponry. And a box. And perhaps some rotten food.

            Now that I think about it, Metal Gear Solid 3 also has a white-dressed woman beating you up in cutscenes several times throughout the story. Only it feels completely earned, ’cause she’s both your mentor and the final boss.

          4. Christopher Wolf says:

            Gotham Central was a series about the cops in Gotham…so…probably. Haven’t read it, but there should be something there.

          5. Blake says:

            I mean there’s the Gotham TV show that’s about to end which is centered around Gordon, and had a bunch of wacky powered villians, but I wouldn’t really have called any of them supervillains throughout its run. Outside of Al-Ghul I’m pretty sure they all had a weakness to bullets which kept the fights relatively fair.

            Note for anyone interested in the show: it wasn’t until after season 1 that it embraced it’s campy zany comic greatness, so season 1 is a bit of a slog.

      2. Matt says:

        Maybe he has Bat-Brass Knuckles in his gauntlets?

        The times that I remember Batman facing these guys, he had to outwit them because he couldn’t beat them in a straight up fight. Sometimes he tricks them into some kind of trap or discovers their weak spot and exploits it. Other times, he builds some kind of gadget or power armor that negates their advantage.

        When he teams up with Superman or the Justice League, he’s usually make him the tech expert (if someone else isn’t filling that niche) or the strategist. Alternatively, he’s the investigator that uncovers the threat or critical weakness. I think this makes him plausibly relevant on a team of supers.

      3. CrimsonCutz says:

        I’m not familiar enough with Batmans enemies to know exactly how “super” any given one is supposed to be, but Batman is definitely a character I struggle to care about because of how impossible it is to take his whole “normal human” thing seriously. Even if he could be as strong and smart and well trained as he is, which…he couldn’t, the sheer fatigue from maintaining some sort of day life to keep up appearances while also being out exerting himself (strenuously) every night should leave him an utter wreck before long. Not to mention the accumulated injuries from all the times he’s ever taken hits in combat. As a general rule I just don’t like non-super powered superheroes/supervillains. They always seem to go against their own concepts by doing clearly impossible things, and it’s a lot more noticeable because it’s much easier to grasp what the limits of a normal human being should be, roughly speaking, than it is to grasp what the limits of a guy with magic spider powers should be. I’ve seen a few normal human beings in my life, but magic spider power dudes are out of my realm of expertise.

        1. Hector says:

          While I see your point, I’vecome to accept that superhero media has a *much* more flexible idea if normal than our world. And this is basically the price admission. If it helps, just remember that every hero has superpowers, just not always obvious ones.

          Why does Batman have, basically, infinite money and time and energy? He is a Superhero and that is his “power”. Why do so many bad guys gave hordes of mooks eager to throw themselves at a nigh-unstoppable hero? Because that’s part of their villain schtick. It doesn’t matter that thus is described as a mundane fact or ability – all that really means us that the Joker can’t remove Batman’s wealth with a Kryptonite Anti-Money Ray.

          1. Kylroy says:

            Speaking of – the Joker is kind of the king of “why are you here?” Batman has resources and training, Joker has…wits? A willingness to murder or torture anyone and anything? If you have trouble taking Batman seriously, the Joker should be right out.

            1. Mike says:

              I have exactly this problem with the Joker, actually. He’s such a terrible idea that he shatters any ability I have to take BATMAN seriously, especially since I find him rather implausible (and uncool) to begin with.

            2. Dreadjaws says:

              Joker has unpredictability. He goes beyond reason and as such is just not possible to know what he’s going to do. Other people can be scared or punched into complying, but not him. Other people can be talked into surrendering, but not him. Even criminals have rules, but Joker does not play by anyone’s rules.

              Granted, if Batman was willing to kill, then yeah, Joker wouldn’t make any sense as a character.

        2. Lars says:

          I like Bats. Because he is human and most of his foes are human. Exceptions are the ones I listed plus Ivy and Solomon Grundy. That is a reason why I don’t like those villains. They fit Superman or Flash or other DC heroes who have superhuman abilities and rely on brawl. Bats fights with brain, willpower and tech.

          Justice League damages the Batman Universe.

      4. GoStu says:

        Come to think of it, in the Arkham games Batman doesn’t really punch most of those guys directly.

        Clayface is defeated by (sigh) dodging his attacks and letting him run into Joker’s conveniently-placed piles of explosives, and then he’s frozen by Freeze bombs. This makes him vulnerable enough, and shows that Batman is kind of a gadgets guy.

        Fights against Bane are often dismantling whatever’s pumping Super-Steroids (fine, Venom. Bleh.) into Bane at the moment. Rip out a hose so he powers down, etc.

        Croc’s portrayal is rather lame. There’s that “battle” in the sewers where he swims around and he tries to charge you, and you slap him down with batarangs to the vulnerable face. This fight kind of sucks but never descends to an arm-wrestle or anything.

    2. Decius says:

      Anyone with a gun or perception-related superpower can overcome spider-sense dodging.

      Spider-man can dodge bullets because he knows where they are going to be before the shooter does, and can be elsewhere. He doesn’t have the speed to dodge a bullet that has already been fired, and he doesn’t have the agility to dodge a well-designed pattern of bullets; when swinging on a web, Spider man has only three ways to control his course: He can let go, hold on, or pull in. Anyone with a bullet-related power should be expected to routinely be able to accurately fire three shots within a single panel.

      Spider-man can dodge anything that can be dodged, but anyone who fights superheros without having superpowers themselves doesn’t bother using things that can be negated by the notable strength of their opponent; if you’re fighting Spider-man, don’t use attacks that in principle could be dodged, and don’t rely on him having finite traction or inadequate strength.

      If you have time to prepare a location to fight spider-man, assemble a room and cover the floor with loose gravel; having super traction with anything his feet touch won’t help him maneuver when the floor isn’t solid. Cover all the walls with several layers of plywood sheets attached with a weak adhesive; he can’t use his webs to maneuver if all he does is pull the walls down. And negate his direct webbing of people.

      Making those things kinds of power-negators happen outdoors in Brooklyn is pretty hard to do.

      1. Daimbert says:

        It kinda reminds me of Atton’s advice on how to kill a Jedi in Sith Lords. Someone who takes on powered individuals regularly is going to have all sorts of tricks for how to do that. So one example here would be to fire fast enough in a pattern that requires Spidey to dodge in a way that ‘s predictable, at which point she could nail him at the end of the pattern. Also, Spidey’s senses generally tell him of danger but not what it is, so she could again sucker him into something. It’s also pretty reasonable that she researched him before meeting him as someone that she might have to deal with and so had some plans already for what she might do.

        1. Decius says:

          I give Spidey-sense the benefit of the doubt as to the specificity of things that need to be dodged; it’s at least as good as seeing prediction lines in Gun Gale Online.

    3. tremor3258 says:

      Sable usually uses a group as backup against Spidey in the comics (I’m a little out of date here) – her goons and her tech plus skills to balance out Spidey’s advantages, and she’s expensive enough to hire that basically Sable keeps the balance of payments going for a small country. It still doesn’t usually as go as well as here in the balance though.

    4. Christopher says:

      Sable showing up repeatedly to kick Spidey’s superpowered protagonist butt reminds me of two things:

      – That first season of Legend of Korra where a city of superpowered martial artists lose in fights against regular dudes with tazers and bolas, which feels about as contrived as it does here, at least until they get their giant robots out.

      Nadine. Naughty Dog and Insomniac still leaning on each other after all this time. She even does the same thing of losing control of her mercs and showing up as a good guy come the DLC.

      1. tremor3258 says:

        Thinking on Korra –

        I always liked Yojimbo here – not with powers or the like, but utterly unstoppable force of sword-swinging destruction is gravely threatened by a simple matchlock pistol if its wielder ever decides to kill him.

        The drama is almost the lack of drama in how easy it would be.

        Sable hired Sandman a few times, this would have been a good one of those times.

        1. MelTorefas says:

          Korra worked for me because they set it up so well in Airbender (and wisely went with Ty Lee’s style over Mai’s). It wouldn’t have otherwise. But by the time we see the anti-benders in Korra, we’ve long since known that bending is far from infallible or unbeatable. The use of technology combined with skilled martial arts to counter magic plus skilled martial arts seems like a suitable way to do it.

          (Of course, there OTHER problems with show, which I will freely admit despite the fact it is my favorite. But the anti-benders never bothered me, at least.)

  3. Liessa says:

    I’m not a comic fan so I don’t have much to say about the character design, but I do remember rolling my eyes when Pete’s spider-sense seemed to bug out the moment Sable entered.

    1. Hal says:

      That’s the problem with the Spider-Sense. Because it basically renders him immune to surprise in any sense, the writers have a tendency to just ignore it when they need to for dramatic reasons. There’s quite a few more times in the game where the Spider-Sense ought to have saved Peter a lot of trouble, but instead someone gets the drop on him and suddenly it’s as if he didn’t have it. Bah.

      1. jon babineau says:

        I don’t really mind having a gun antivillain fight Spidey. His level of strength and durability varies a lot and he never seems as in your face about it as someone like Hulk or Juggernaut where strength is their whole thing So if the Punisher wants to bust onto a scene in his muscle car, unload a few (dozen) clips and snag Spidey with some one-off gadget he probably stole from the mafia, I’m down.

        Repeating that two more times in the same game would be pushing it, though, and Sable is no Punisher.

        Maybe if it was during that time he turned into a Zombie and ran with Man-Bat and Werewolf-by-Night.

        Comics are weird.

  4. Modran says:

    I like here with her hair a bit shorter than in your image , but longer than in the game, personnaly.

    Rhino, Vulture, Electro, Doctor Octopus, Scorpion, and Martin

    Yeah, I know, it’s been linked before, but it’s so perfect !

    1. kdansky says:

      You’ll love DOTA2! Phoenix, Earthshaker, Venomancer, Winter Wyvern, Death Prophet, Keeper of the Light, and of course …


  5. Daimbert says:

    With her skin-tight suit and over-sized guns …

    Plus that assault rifle she’s carrying (ba-doom-chish!).

    Seriously, though, I liked comics Silver Sable, although I didn’t get to follow her much (note to self: browse for Silver Sable TPBs). In the comics, she was generally reliable but some of those she had hired were often a bit overzealous, to put it mildly (usually Paladin). Showing her mercs getting overly aggressive but having her explicitly call it out would be consistent with her character, and would give a reason for Peter to not mention it right away. Heck, she could even intervene to stop the fight before the end by beating Spider-Man, and then when he tells her why he got involved pull the old “Is that true? … You’re out!” routine.

    Given what you’ve said in a few sections here, and having read the prequel book, I’m not as convinced as you are that the writers know what they’re doing. Or, rather, I’m more worried that what they are doing IS what counts as good writing these days …

  6. Daimbert says:

    Browsing on TV Tropes, I think I know why she’s in the game: Sony is planning a movie based around her, and so putting her into any media they have access to is a good thing for them …

    1. Dreadjaws says:

      The problem is not that she’s in the game, it’s that this version is a terrible character with a completely uninteresting look.

  7. John says:

    Wasn’t FEAST the magazine Kyle Rayner worked for back in the day?

  8. Hal says:

    The arrival of Silver Sable is what really pushes a metagame element for me. Namely this: Where are all the other heroes?

    Look, I get it. It’s a Spider-Man game. We don’t need any other heroes taking up any oxygen in the room from Peter. But the stakes are driven so high that it beggars belief that Spider-Man is the only person doing anything about it. A terrorist detonated bombs at a mayoral campaign rally, killing a lot of people. The mayor’s response was to bring in a paramilitary organization to effectively occupy Manhattan.

    You’d think at some point at least one of the Avengers would say, “Should we go back and see what’s happening?” Or perhaps any of the other Manhattan based heroes might have poked their heads out: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, The Fantastic Four . . . and those are just the ones where the game acknowledges their existence. There’s at least a dozen other supers who specifically live in and around NYC, on top of the X-Men (who I guess we pretend don’t exist for the sake of licensing agreements).

    Like I said, it’s Spider-Man’s game, so it wouldn’t make sense for everyone else to come out of the woodwork. But if they’re going to show all of these other heroes as being a part of the world, then I need at least a lampshade as to why they’re not bothering to help out, especially given how things escalate in the late game.

    1. The Wind King says:

      I’ve always assumed Heroes have a rota to help them balance their ‘Normal Person’ duties / jobs…

      “Look, Spidey, it’s my week off from costume capery, and I’ve got clients backed-up until next Christmas, go bug Hank Fortress or whoever that guy was…”

    2. John says:

      Why do you assume that all these other characters and groups necessarily exist in this game’s universe? This isn’t the comics, where New York is positively crammed with superheroes, or even the movies and TV shows which are all (nominally) in a shared universe. Isn’t this game it’s own alternate universe kind of thing?

      1. guy says:

        I don’t know about the full set, but Avengers Tower is present and climbable.

        1. Shamus says:

          Just to add to the list: The Sanctum (Dr. Strange) and Murdock’s law firm (Daredevil) are also present.

          1. Hal says:

            So is the Rand Corporation, Alias Investigations, and the Baxter Building. Like I said, all the heroes the game acknowledges.

            1. John says:

              I stand corrected. As is now obvious, I haven’t played the game. Also, I’m a little concerned about my reading comprehension.

              Anyway, I believe that the traditional answer when people ask questions like this in Marvel comics letter columns is to claim that the other heroes are all busy somehow, citing the other heroes books as appropriate along with some not-so-subtle encouragement to go buy those books.

              Honestly, this sort of thing usually doesn’t bother me very much. If I’m watching or reading a story about character A, I’m not usually worried too much about what some tangentially related character B is doing. In this specific case, I don’t think I’d worry too much about the Avengers or the Fantastic Four. It would be one thing if the characters themselves had already appeared in the story–this is the part where you tell me they did and I feel even stupider–but I don’t think that the appearance of their buildings rises to that level. I would have taken the appearance of, say, the Baxter Building as a fun little Easter egg rather than as foreshadowing that the Fantastic Four would have some role to play in the story.

              But I concede that this is all quite subjective.

              1. Hal says:

                No, none of those heroes appear in the game. Their buildings are there largely as Easter Eggs; set dressing to make the city fun when you’re swinging around in it.

                But you’re right about the comics comparison, in the sense that when you decide everyone is going to inhabit a shared world, you have to address the question of “Why didn’t the other heroes show up for this thing?” It’s easy to say, “They were busy” if it’s just a normal tussle between a hero and his nemesis/rogue’s gallery/etc. Sometimes you get the conflicts that entail widespread, massive-scale destruction and loss of life. I don’t think it’s unfair to wonder why (for example) The Thing doesn’t come out to play if Rhino has destroyed three city blocks adjacent to the Baxter Building.

                Heck, I don’t need these guys to show up in any cinematics. I don’t even need a montage of Spidey on his phone trying to reach these guys and just getting voicemail. Just lampshade it somehow.

    3. Sartharina says:

      I assume they have their hands full. They’ll get around to investigating once their own rouge’s gallery stops harassing them at every turn.

      For example – maybe the avengers are off in Cambodia taking down an AIM operation.

      1. Christopher says:

        Yeah, I don’t worry about this stuff too much. Unless you want comic book style crossovers at every turn, you gotta shut out the other superheroes in your Spider-Man story.

        And if this was a crossover event, at least Daredevil’s adventures or whatever would be covered in his own comic, not Spidey’s comic.

    4. Agammamon says:

      Because the Guild has rules. And while they don’t like it, the heroes know that if they break the Guild’s rules then the Guild will just become lawless.

      So no sticking your nose in to business between a villain and their arch.

    5. Boobah says:

      Random nit-pickery: unless they’ve moved on from Xavier’s school, the X-Men are based in upstate New York, not The City.

      Even if they were, they’re a pretty focused group. They’re unlikely to get involved in terrorist shenanigans in NYC unless there’s a mutant angle, or it’s one of their old foes (which is usually another way of saying ‘there’s a mutant angle.’)

      1. Taellosse says:

        I honestly don’t know where – or in what form – the X-Men are at present, but you’re mistaken about the traditional location of Xavier’s School. It’s always described as located in “Westchester, NY” – which is treated like the name of a town in the comics, but is in fact that of the county just north of NYC. It’s a tall but relatively thin county, running along the southwestern corner of CT. Depending exactly which town holds the school, though, it’s anywhere from 30 minutes to 1.25 hours from the center of Manhattan (by car – much less by stealth plane, obviously).

        I have a vague memory of seeing a map in some X-comic or other depicting the school relative to NYC that’d place it roughly where the real-life Eastchester is, which puts it about 20 miles outside the city (and a bit over 1/2 an hour by road), but I could be quite mistaken.

  9. Redrock says:

    Discussing the visual design of MJ and Silver Sable in the game is tricky because, well, there’s the looming spectre of a particularly unpleasant political debate about gender, sexualization, the male gaze, etc. And no one here wants that. Sidestepping all that, I’d just want to point out that skintight suits and unrealistic curves and hair that constitute the comic book approach to drawing female characters have to be replaced with something else. That said, I very much appreciated that in the game Silver Sable is designed to look unabashedly middle-aged, which is so rare in games and comics that it’s something of an achievement on its own. But, god, is Sable annoying.

    1. Christopher says:

      I don’t think you _have_ to change anything. Devil May Cry started doing face mocap and super realistic textures and stuff with DMC5, and something was certainly sacrificed on the altar of realism. Everyone’s got a regular person face now, saturation is largely turned down and the main characters’ clothing was as also scanned in from real clothing they made for the game.

      But Trish still wears the same lightning cutout corser she’s had since DMC1. Lady has a different one each game that still looks a lot like her original design. Dante and Nero have still got their signature color-coded coats, even if those colors are less prominent than normal. Returning enemies look like their counterparts from 1, 2, 3 and 4, only more intricate and with beautiful new effects. Same goes for Resident Evil 2.

      Spidey goes the mundane route of just turning down every design besides spidey himself. Every badguy in tights, besides ock, has power armor instead. May just looks like any old lady. Mj looks like any ginger. Sable, commonly a chick with white anime hair, a sort of alternate color Black Widow, now reads as an old scientist with her gray hair and long white coat. It’s the same misguided sense of realism that leads Mr. Negative to identify himself as Mr. Negative, rather than the kind of realism that just lends more fidelity to classic designs.

      I’ve seen worse takes on these characters, but I don’t think there’s much that’s praiseworthy either. The coolest are Spidey and Negative, and those are the most faithful.

      1. kdansky says:

        This is one my major gripes with many modern games: They are praised for how pretty they are, but when you take a closer look, they are decidedly mediocre. None of the screenshots so far from this series was remarkably beautiful or stunning. It’s more like a kid took some low-res pictures with an old phone.

        They lack style and art direction that makes Windwaker or WoW look good even though they are decades old. Instead we get washed out colours, realistic (and always short) haircuts, unremarkable office buildings and warehouses, and mo-capped movement that is just not interesting at all.

        Side-rant: What’s with the washed-out colours? Did none of the artists ever walk outside? The real world shows a much higher saturation and wider gamuts than computer screens are physically able to. And worst of all: Why is this so prevalent in superhero stories? Injustice did it, Superman v Batman did it, Spidey does it…

        1. Christopher says:

          Well, I’m not gonna get behind Spider-Man being an ugly game. There’s not much in terms of stylization and I think the character designs aren’t great, but I also think there’s beautiful lighting, a really pretty city to swing around in, and all these tiny details like the texture of his suit that helps greatly with the sense of immersion. Unlike Devil May Cry, it’s also got some more saturated colors. Just my own pictures turned out pretty fine.

          Devil May Cry is very desaturated comparatively in terms of color, with only a few exceptions during the early stages.

          These are both beautiful games, I just wish one wasn’t so hard on mundane beliveability and the other so hard on low saturation. And, I suppose, not so hard on realism in general.

    2. Olivier FAURE says:

      Agreed. I think they could have made her look more military-ish to compensate, whereas now she’s looking more like a cross between a scientist and a helicopter pilot.

      Maybe give her even shorter hair, a bandana, grey-and-white urban camo, black boots?

      (and yeah, stop having her kick Spiderman’s ass every single time they meet)

    3. Dreadjaws says:

      I know the kind of people who complain about that stuff largely ignore the fanservice goes both ways, but I think it’s worth saying anyway: Spider-Man is wearing tights in this game.

      In any case, they could have made an “updated” look that didn’t look so mundane. Why isn’t there any actual silver on her costume. It’s all grey. Literally the most boring of colors.

  10. Karma The Alligator says:

    Only reason I can think of for Li to go after the citizens first is that he wants to discredit Osborn as mayor (“look at what he let happen!”) to make him suffer more before killing him.

  11. Joshua says:

    “Maybe the writer decided the audience-reveal was enough? The Osborn rally ends with a shot of Mr. Li commanding the Demons in his Mr. Negative form. At this point the audience knows who the bad guy is, and maybe the writer felt that having a scene where Peter caught up to what we already know was too much of a snooze?”

    This was my first thought when presented with this premise. It’s a tricky thing making an effective reveal to the character when the audience is already in on the secret. Without some finesse, it’s just going to come off as anti-climactic.

    For some reason, this makes me think of J.J. Abrams and his reliance on “We can never let X find out, the truth would destroy them!”. Hint, they often eventually find out and they are not destroyed, and the audience is often not impressed.

    1. Olivier FAURE says:

      A nice play on this trope was the Dragon Prince, where (minor spoilers), two characters both try and fail to work up the nerve to announce a loved one’s death to their companion.

      When he does find out, in a brutal fashion, his immediate reaction is “Of course, I’m such an idiot, it was so obvious!”, before he storms off. You both get the sense that they should have broken the news sooner, and that there was no way they were going to because it was so raw for them.

    2. jon babineau says:

      So they needed to have Spidey learn about Mr. Negative at the same time as the audience. That shouldn’t have been too hard.

      1. Matthew Downie says:

        Yeah, that’s a fairly basic storytelling principle.

        For example, The Empire Strikes Back doesn’t just reveal the true fate of Luke’s father; it reveals it [i]to Luke[/i].

        If it was just mentioned for the benefit of the audience, that scene would fall flat for anyone who sees the movie a second time or who already had it spoiled. “Yeah, we know. Get on with it.” But seeing Luke respond to the reveal means the scene still has impact no matter what the audience already knows.

  12. Isaac says:

    Spider-Man likely found out about Li being behind the bombing from the news? It’s downtown Manhattan (which means a lot of street cameras) and a lot of people (i.e. witnesses) were at City Hall that day. Li is also a well-known philanthropist who owns a major homeless shelter.

    Also, he decides to bomb innocent people in order to show how much of a helpless & ineffective mayor Osborne is and to make him feel like a failure. He tells Osborne this outright during their phone call before the attack.

    1. Shamus says:

      Problem with that: Nobody ELSE knows that Li is behind the bombing.

      1. Isaac says:

        So out of possibly hundreds of attendees, no one saw an unmasked Martin Li calmly walking around the site of the bombing and clearly giving orders to the Demons? And that’s not even getting into the possibility that he was seen on street cameras or recorded by smartphone cameras during or after the attack.

        1. Shamus says:

          Apparently so. According to the dialog with Yuri, Spider-Man is the ONLY person pointing fingers at Li.

          1. Isaac says:

            Yeah alright you you have a point there.

        2. CrimsonCutz says:

          Keep in mind that this happened during a big speech. Most people would have been watching the podium, especially if they noticed Norman Osborne leaving in a hurry. Spider-Man saw Li because his spider sense alerted him to something going on off to the side and he was trying to get there when the bomb went off. Your view of Li at the attack is cut to after you see Peter Parker trying to push through the crowd, so it’s pretty much telling you that’s what he saw right before the bombs went off. Most people wouldn’t have had any reason to look over there, nor would they necessarily recognize Martin Li (he is a famous name, but I don’t get the sense his face is super recognizable), and his Demons were making a point of cleaning up survivors who might be witnesses in the aftermath.

    2. Dev Null says:

      Spider-Man needs to prove to the police that Li is behind the Demon gang.

      Wait, what? Shamus had almost talked me into believing in some kind of excuse like yours – that everyone knows now, because it was on the news – but actually the missing scene is one where Peter, and apparently _only_ Peter, learns who the baddie is? That’s…. a very specifically-shaped hole you’ve got there.

  13. RCN says:

    The problem is that Mr. Negative’s plan to “get back” at Norman involves destroying Norman’s reputation and everything he cares about instead of just killing him straight.

    However, in order to do this he has to kill and harm orders of magnitude more people than Norman ever had (well, so far in this game’s storyline. I know he got in the other side of this particular magnitude scale comparison that time he became president of the US in the comics and turned the country into Villain-Nation), which makes him orders of magnitude worse than Osborn, and yet the game (or rather, mostly Peter Parker) treats Mr. Negative as if the only person he is harming (or intends to harm) is Osborn.

    Which is odd because of the truckload of people directly connected to Peter directly affected by Mr. Negative’s collateral damage quest against Osborn.

    The villain would be much better served if Mr. Negative was an actual counterpart to Mr. Li. If Mr. Negative methods involved making Osborn suffer as much as possible but with as minimal collateral damage as possible (as opposed to so much collateral damage that he harms people that in no way are involved with Osborn or contributes to harming Osborn), he’d be a much better villain deserving of Peter’s conflicting emotions. As it stands, Peter should be seething with rage every time he confronts Mr. Negative.

    For instance, instead of STAGING A FREAKING TERRORIST ATTACK in Osborn’s political rally in a contradictory attempt to tank his approval ratings (in real life such an attack would just create a wave of sympathy for Osborn, even if he had left the rally in mysterious circumstances), he could, say, sabotage the helicopter Osborn uses to get in the rally to take control over it and crash it into the podium right on top of Miles’ father when he left, making him seem cowardly, incompetent and indulgent in luxuries for taking off from the rally in a hurry in an unnecessary vehicle because of a bomb threat and only ending killing the guy he was supposed to honor while there’s was no bomb.

    Likewise instead of releasing the secret Osborn supervirus in the city to kill everyone, he could just steal it and infect Osborn closest allies/staff with it (and instead of making the virus airborne and contagious by touch, only make it contagious through ingested water), to make him lose the people he supposedly cares the most thanks to his hubris as well as exposing the virus later on as an Osborn creation.

    1. Isaac says:

      These alternate methods would work if the game’s story didnt show that Li’s methods ended up working. As a result of the bombing, Osborn hires a PMC that ends up turning Manhattan into a police state that unlawfully jails people and evicts them from their homes. Then when Li & Doc Ock cause a mass prison escape and a viral outbreak, Osborn looks even more incompetent since more & more New Yorkers end up dying as a result.

      1. RCN says:

        I’m not debating his methods didn’t work (though I did say they shouldn’t work). I’m debating his methods are wasteful, go way beyond the scope of his goals, and don’t make him an interesting villain but rather just a regular terrorist, just like Shamus says.

        His main power is brainwashing but he uses that power mainly to plant human bombs and sow random chaos that are in no way related to his goals. And possibly recruit henchmen (though if that’s the case Peter is harming a LOT of innocent people). With this power he could be a grand schemer of pin-point accuracy to his plans without being an implausible Xanatos Roulette dealer that relies on omniscience and a copy of the script.

        Also, it would make his antagonism with Osborn much more believable and sympathetic.

        As it stands, the damage he does to Osborn IS the collateral damage to his mayhem in practice, not the goal, making it seem more like his supposed hatred of Osborn is more of an excuse he tells himself to slaughter people at random than his true motive. If it wasn’t for audience perspective, when he told me he killed a bunch of people to get back at Osborn I wouldn’t believe him.

  14. evilmrhenry says:

    “Again, here we have a supervillain that doesn’t feel very supervillain-ish. His methodology is straight-up terrorism, with mass murder being both his goal and his methodology. His “costume” is just a business suit. His most dangerous power is brainwashing. His secret “lairs” are just regular offices and warehouses. Within the story he doesn’t even get a supervillain name. This guy is not a Spider-Man villain. This is a villain for someone with oversized guns that takes themselves too seriously.”

    Kept waiting for the MegaMind reference.

  15. Agammamon says:

    Here the designer made the gate electrified to explain why we couldn’t just tear it off its hinges. I appreciate them taking the time to justify stuff like this.

    Except that they then left the wire to the gate and the junction box completely exposed to Parker. He could have ripped it off the wall, de-energized the gate, then ripped the gate out.

    Did they also explain how a company would get away with leaving an electrified door like that without any safeguards preventing anyone from accidentally touching it? If its strong enough that Parker can’t power through it then its strong enough to seriously mess up anyone who brushes against it – not even goat/predator fences are strong enough to do that.

    1. CrimsonCutz says:

      Given that the company is owned by Mister Negative/Martin Li and being used by his gang members, I kind of doubt compliance with safety regulations is a top priority. If following the law is important to him, he’s got way bigger problems on his hands than some dangerous puzzle doors.

      1. Agammamon says:

        Its still a ‘legitimate’ company – he’s going to get inspectors in from time to time. This is just going to cause him unnecessary problems before he’s ready to deal with them. *Everyone* would like to bury the safety inspectors – but eventually someone’s going to notice they don’t come back from that building.

        1. CrimsonCutz says:

          He’ll get inspections from time to time, sure, but unless they’re dropping in on that specific day he doesn’t care. His terrorism plans are pretty short term, so if he knows he’s not due for anyone to drop by in the next month it doesn’t matter in the slightest. He has his demon mask dudes with their fingers on the triggers wandering around the place, so I really don’t think safety inspections are going to be a thing that matters here.

  16. JoCommando says:

    “You dense bastard.”

    “Even ignoring all of that, why doesn’t Peter notice?”

    Tinfoil hat time: with Kai Leng and TIM (Silver Sable and Mr. Li, respectively) both making an appearance in this game, I think we can make a pretty solid case that Peter is not dense, but rather suffering the early effects of slow, insidious indoctrination.

    Jokes aside, this game’s plot makes me grateful for the vast amount of past Spidey material to draw on (and retreat to, if need be) in order to separate this weak story from the characters and setting I so enjoy. The Mass Effect trilogy wasn’t so fortunate in that, being the self-contained thing that it was, the characters and setting were inextricably linked to the story we saw them in, so the failure of the latter condemned the former to being less than they could have been.

  17. Dreadjaws says:

    As soon as I heard that phone conversation between Li and Osborn I knew just how much of a cliche villain he was going to be. “I’m going to destroy everything you care about” is the laziest excuse to have a villain attack lots of innocent people for revenge against one individual.

    Also yeah, that bit where Spider-Man knows Li was behind the bombing despite being unconscious and literally no one else seeing him made me pause. I had a power outage around the time and I thought for a moment I had lost a crucial cutscene or something like that. On the one hand, I’m glad to know it didn’t happen. On the other hand, Jesus, that’s poor storytelling.

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