T w e n t y S i d e d
- Entice them with a compelling story.
- If you can’t do that, then bribe them with treasure.
- If you won’t do that, then let them know that if they don’t play along they will be stuck in this boring, treasure-less campaign forever.
– Shamus, Friday Dec 29, 2006
Edit: This comic used to contain the slur for people with mental disabilities. The pre-remastered version is still linked above, and the version of the remaster containing said slur is available here for those emotionally invested in the comic remaining entirely the same. The original word was a sad product of it’s time and I don’t feel the need to inflict it on old or new readers.
God damn it; more slurs. I’m really regretting my decision to just leave everything word-for-word. I didn’t want to deal with angry fanboys but now I’m both dealing with angry fanboys whom I had no hope of making happy and there’s a bunch of slurs. Maybe we’ll just go back and fix them retroactively. I’m like 99.9% certain that upon a remaster, my dad would have taken them out himself. But he wouldn’t have had to worry about people being angry that he was ‘censoring’ the work of a dead man. He would have just done it because it’s not 2006 anymore.
On a lighter note; why anyone would be only motivated by imaginary loot in a roleplaying game is beyond me. But, then again, I’ve been motivated by loot in video games before and the only difference between those things is having a picture of the item in question…
That does it. The only answer is I will be demanding my DM’s choke up carefully detailed hand-drawn pictures of every single piece of loot from now on. I’m sure that won’t have any interpersonal repercussions and everyone will love me.
Final Fantasy X
A game about the ghost of an underwater football player who travels through time to save the world from a tick that controls kaiju satan. Really.
Top 64 Videogames
Lists of 'best games ever' are dumb and annoying. But like a self-loathing hipster I made one anyway.
A Lack of Vision and Leadership
People fault EA for being greedy, but their real sin is just how terrible they are at it.
The Best of 2015
My picks for what was important, awesome, or worth talking about in 2015.
The Best of 2016
My picks for what was important, awesome, or worth talking about in 2016.
Change the slurs! If so-called fanboys complain, point out that those words just don’t look good in a higher resolution. It’s like peering too closely at a texture.
I’m finally removing this site from my RSS, I’ll let you guess why.
If it were him, he wouldn’t be publishing old content – out of the decade I spent reading his stuff, he was always interested in doing new things, rather than rehashing old ideas (unless it was Mass Effect, of course – he jusg couldn’t let that thing go, bless him :D).
No offence, but no one’s making you upload content to this site, least of all him. To my memory, there have been two things he publicly posted about this website after his death. Here’s the more relevant one:
“The plan is that the comments would be closed across the entire site. This is just to protect against spammers and vandals, since the site would no longer have a full-time moderator. Other than that, not much ought to change. Well, aside from the lack of updates I guess”
Nowhere does he say “I wish my kids would start remastering my old stuff and posting articles that aren’t related to what I used to write about.”
Why can’t we just leave this site as he wanted – closed comments, no new content – and just have you guys posting to a new website? Twenty Sided Reborn or something like that, where you can post about whatever interests you without worrying about all this other stuff?
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…the text-based Let’s Plays that have been running are exactly the kind of thing he did over the years. I for one think the content is delightful.
More pointedly to Bay: you seem to have already made a decision, but I’ll chime in with yes, you clearly need to change them for your sake even if no one else’s (and as others have pointed out, you’ll never make a certain segment happy anyway).
Keep up the good work! You’re doing great by your father’s legacy.
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Take them out, and don’t worry about what the haters say. Like you said, it’s not 2006 anymore. Some people, like myself, knew about DM of the Rings, but found it far too intimidating to go back and read it all from the start. Experiencing it weekly as it was originally published is a great way to enjoy it, and removing the slurs just makes sense for a modern reader.
I find the people arguing that they know what Shamus would have wanted better than his own children disgusting. I had to deal with similar people when my own father died, but eventually they went away. I hope the same is true here.
If you’re referring to my comment, I don’t claim to know what Shamus wanted after his death. I’m genuinely curious why they decided to continue writing on this blog rather than create their own, since the content they’re interested in doesn’t have a lot to do with what Shamus was into. Even during the earlier stages of this blog.
Also, I’ve never liked the revisionism of history we keep seeing nowadays. It’s sweeping real problems under the rug, instead of confronting them.
It makes people seem better than they originally were and gives the people consuming the media a wrong impression of what the world was actually like.
But I do understand why they’d want to make their dad look infallible. I’d certainly want to do it for my own family. But I also think that presenting things as they actually were in the past makes us appreciate how far we’ve come.
Even for something as small and inconsequential as a webcomic with a couple of bad words in 2 or 3 entries. It makes it seem like Shamus was always a saint who was always tolerant and non-derogatory towards people with disabilities. But at the same time, I can see where Bay’s coming from. I’d certainly want to paint my parents in a positive light.
Yeah that isn’t what I’m trying to do. In fact, I’ve spoken here repeatedly about how my father was both sexist and neglectful, things this site never knew.
I’m not sweeping anything under the rug, if I was, I would have fixed it quietly and moved on. Instead, I’ve talked about it at-length and debated publicly over what to do.
But I’ve now realized that by leaving things as they were, I’m pandering to the worst kind of people, and I’m doing no one any favors. That’s my bad.
My father had slurs in his original comic. That does not mean I need to repeat and share the hate when remaking it. The originals will still be there exactly as they are, but the remaster will be less hateful and I can’t believe I’m having to defend that idea. I can’t believe I’ve had to defend so many things on this site.
As for why I’m still here instead of a freshly made site; it’s a long complicated family drama and I don’t need to explain myself. I am here, my dad would be proud I’m here. Sorry you don’t like it, some people aren’t going to, which is true of anything I do publicly ever in my life.
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“I can’t believe I’m having to defend that idea.”
Because that way lies censorship. You don’t edit Shakespeare, or Gilbert and Sullivan, or even a racist like Lovecraft. You let the work stand and then comment on it. Likewise Shamus’ story here shows the social crassness of the groups he knew, it encompasses a different time where being insensitive like that wouldn’t be called out and cause one to be immediately shunned and canceled into oblivion.
If you feel you have to rewrite it, at least be original and rewrite it . Make it your own instead of just editing out a few bad words to make it more palatable to individuals who require a sanitized media.
It’s your blog. You do what you think is best, and you’re allowed to change your mind about what that is, too, if you want.
If he didn’t change Chainmail Bikini, he wouldn’t change this. The text is the text.
Whoof. I don’t usually read the comments here (or most places.) Reading the comments on this one… I’m really sorry you’re dealing with this.
I’m cool with doing it either way. I appreciate the desire to honour Shamus’ legacy. That’s a lot of why I’m here. But you’re not wrong that he changed things, and would presumably have rewritten that bit too, as well as all sorts of other odds and ends.
But if it helps, you’re now seeing why worrying about the fanboys’ opinion won’t help you anyway? Dunno, pretty cold comfort. I’m sorry. This sucks.
Did anyone actually say they got offended by the depiction of 2000s lowbrow guys talking like that? If so yeah change it if you feel like it. It’s not like it changes anything to the jokes or the flow of the story.
I’m pretty sure that if it was your dad changing things up, while he wouldn’t have had to “worry about people being angry that he was ‘censoring’ the work of a dead man”, there would still be a lot of people complaining about censorship and rewriting history. (The same way people are pissed at Spielberg for removing the cops’ guns in ET, for instance. Or at George Lucas for the billion changes in each edition of Star Wars.)
Personnally, I’m somewhere in the middle. I do think that it would be a shame, for several reasons, to change up anything about the text in this remaster, as long as the original stays available, it’s not that big a deal.
I know for me personally I’ve always had to reccomend DM of the Rings with the caveat that it’s very…2006. I also know once we get to a few of the bonus strips (my brain goes to the Elven Hillbillies in particular) that there’s some stuff to make me wince.
On the other hand, DM of the Rings is also really an artifact of its time. Before universal internet adoption, when you just had to be friends with whatever nerd you could find nearby who shared your interests, regardless of how toxic they are. In that way it reminds me of Evan Dorkin’s *The Eltingville Club*, albeit unintentionally.
Personally, I’m glad the site is continuing. I’m less glad the comments appear to be devolving into what comments are like everywhere else on the Internet. One of the pleasures of the old Twenty Sided was that the community was (generally) fairly respectful – in words at least if not in opinions. I’m sorry you folks are having to deal with that. Perhaps it is time to get Shamus’ big old blocking boots on? Maybe pre-moderate comments for a while, if the back end allows it. I don’t think we’d miss the trolls.
Also, “stealing some money”? Man, if Shamus never made this place pay in its heyday, what money are they stealing? If you don’t like your free content, take your full refund and go elsewhere.
This ^^^^
(Oops, I devolved as well.)
I’ll hop in on the bandwagon: I’m glad the site is continuing, I’m glad to see fresh blood and ideas here, and I’ve been enjoying the remaster of DM of the Rings, even with the at-times iffy 2006 humor. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with keeping it remastered verbatim; it was a product of its era when it came out, and staying true to it doesn’t mean condoning its more dodgy moments, same as linking back to the originals.
Also, wow the hate makes me sad. For people who’re supposedly up in such arms about protecting the legacy of the site (primarily that one sockpuppeter who’s obsessed with Paige), they’ve gone full Batshit Crazy Moron Assholes & aren’t even making an attempt to try and express their feelings or disagreements repsectfully. It’s a sad display, and a testament to both the peeps running the site & the remaining userbase for more or less managing to be Saints or fairly civil Eye-For-An-Eye types despite the amount of hostility they’re facing.
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That sounds like a personal attack. I highly doubt you admired Shamus’s site that much, because he’d have your comment deleted in a heartbeat for incivility.
Edit: Also, “‘writers'”? If they wrote something, they’re a writer. No need for quotation marks.
I am also fine with things continuing on this particular site, even though it sounds like it would be easier to do so on one with a less difficult custom backend. And I am also fine with changing certain language, though I think it would be appropriate to note such on the strips that have it (and with the knowledge that the originals still exist for historical purposes). And I think remastering an ancient comic that many people haven’t read and many longtime fans haven ‘t read since it originally ran is a fine idea, as in bringing in community contributors, which Shamus even did himself on occasion.
I am unsurprised by the reactions- following my rule of ~30% of everything/one/etc will be terrible, even if 2/3 of the people who were dissatisfied with the changes left politely, that means 1/3 of them won’t, and it only takes 1-2 to foul up a small comment section. And with the site understandably not bringing in even the just barely enough that it did at its height, you can’t spend all day standing ready to squash trolls while working on content.
In my personal experience, if a player were to demand drawings of the loot from the GM, 1-2 players would immediately volunteer to do it for them, at least.
It’s kinda fun. Even if one doesn’t feel confidence in one’s drawing, sites like heromachine, heroforge, or various game’s character creators can assist.
I’m also glad the site is continuing, and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with these comments. I would personally remove the slurs, although whatever you decide I will carry on reading. I didn’t read DM of the Rings originally, I started visiting the site back in the ME retrospective days, so these are new for me. I am reading it in the same way that I might rewatch something like Friends – parts of it are uncomfortable and a snapshot of what was seen as funny back then, and I’m glad it no longer is. The originals still exist for those that want them, so I wouldn’t begrudge you wanting to remove the slurs that hurt people.
In terms of changing things to remove those sorts of terms, the thing that’s different here is that the originals are, as far as I know, still easily accessible. This isn’t a replacement, so anyone who has a problem with changes can actually still read the old ones instead (which wasn’t the case for the George Lucas editions, since no one new could buy the old ones as they stopped selling them). So if they bother you that much, subtly changing them shouldn’t be a problem.
An advantage of doing that would be that then you hopefully wouldn’t TALK about the terms, because the way that gets talked about has some … implications. Mostly that talking about it as hate tends to, at least to me, imply intent, and it’s clear that Shamus didn’t intend the terms that way and was just using what people actually said in those sorts of groups, and even THEY used it as a generic insult and not in a way to target a group. The problem was always about the unconscious and unintentional complications, but about it being a direct attack on the group. But I don’t really want to get too deep into that.
As for continuing the site, the nice thing about continuing the site is that it gives people a reason to come to the site, and read the posts that are recommended on each post, and also gives you guys a reason to keep the site going beyond nostalgia. I suspect that without the site being continued in this way, in a few years it would just die out due to no one reading it and little reason for you guys to continue it.
Having been a fairly new reader of the site when Shamus died, I’m glad you’re updating it as it means I visit regularly and can then browse the archives if I’m bored/procrastinating. There’s a lot of really good writing on here.
As for changing the wording, the slurs don’t bother me as a person who’s not a member of the affected group. I don’t tend to actually notice them until you mention them in the commentary, then I skim back and go “oh, yeah”. As others have said, the originals are still there for anyone who wants them and I’m never against removing stuff that could make people uncomfortable. Any more than that I’ll leave to those who are actually affected by the language, but I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with changing it to “stupid” or similar
I read DM of the Rings back when it was coming out and, like a lot of people, always meant to re-read it at some point but just never got around to it. This re-release idea is brilliant and I love getting to come back to it in this way.
The slurs do bother me. The stick out like a sore thumb and really kill the joke they’re in. Replacing the r-word with “idiotic” works just fine. So I’m fine with you doing some light editing here and there.
For what it’s worth, I would consider the retention of the original wording justified. If you feel you need to, add an explicit ‘of its time’ disclaimer on the affected pages.
It’s already established that none of these players are exactly paragons of politeness even within their context, and I would expect anyone reading to understand that the words and views of a character are not necessarily those of the author. (Whether Shamus-then would have used the same language in the same way, and whether a hypothetical Shamus-now would continue to do so, is a question only his family can answer.) With the comic being explicitly flagged up as reposts of Shamus-then rather than original to Bay-now, that’s an extra level of separation.
There is something to be said for leaving bad things as they are with the added note that such things are not ok, but you haven’t deleted the originals or anything. That history remains archived. If you want to make a version of this without the slurs, one that old fans could more comfortably point others toward without worrying that they’ll be exposing that person to ableist slurs, that’s a choice I can get behind.
As an old fan, I would never point anyone to a sanitized version. It misses the point of capturing the slice of time, the exaggerated “terrible” culture.
It would be like pointing someone to a version of Romeo and Juliet with no deaths in the play.
I’d agree…if the point of the cartoon was the word used. But it’s not.
It’s just how that sentiment was expressed in the past. I used to say [I think the spam filter objected to me using the word in the comic, so I removed it] to describe something I thought was stupid (I think my first ever post on this site still does) a decade ago; I don’t now. Times change.
It’s not the same as changing the work. A version of Romeo and Juliet without the deaths would be missing (one of) the point(s) of the play; it wouldn’t BE Romeo and Juliet.
But was the 1996 film Romeo Juliet not really Romeo & Juliet because of all the 90’s pop culture in it?
Also, hey, someone who can disagree with the moderators whilst being civil! *That’s* why I still come here from time to time.
Perhaps a compromise then? I’ve seen some old footage and movies that have been posted online before that used language that is now considered offensive and inappropriate, and it comes with a disclaimer saying something like “the language and themes depicted in this movie are representative of their time. We do not condone nor support these beliefs, but we have preserved it in their original format as to remove or amend them would be akin to pretending that they never existed.” It is a stance that I can wholeheartedly support, as the act of simply covering it up is very similar to what Japan does in its educational curriculum, where they suppress all mention of the atrocities they committed during WWII. As a result, many young Japanese grow up not knowing the horrors their nation committed during the war and are often flabbergasted to discover the truth.
So likewise, maybe just a short disclaimer that these old comics use language and terms that were in common usage during their time, but the beliefs and attitudes they espouse are not something we would allow nowadays as we now recognize the harmful beliefs they perpetuate.
Heya,
Just dropping in to say i really appreciate the effort and thought you put into this remaster (and the website as a whole, thank you :) )
For the wording, i agree with the “change it but keep the link to the originals” crowd.
To be fair though, i have no horse in this race… Tell you what, i also think i have stopped caring about Lucas’ remasters of Star wars… In the big scheme of things it all seems so irrelevant to me (and such a use of energy). The term “storm in a teacup” comes to mind
Is this what getting old is like? Nobody told me! It feels weird
Yes it is! You realise that that thing you really cared about just doesn’t really matter that much to you anymore. It’s kind of great.
As Abe Simpson says, It’ll Happen To You [One Day].
It’s a weird place of zenitude!
Honestly, I don’t dislike it :)
Considering *no-one* has proposed editing, removing, or hiding the originals; they’re still available as they were posted, it’s hard to take many of the claims of “censorship!” seriously. Likewise for those that have claimed editing the language would be “revisionism.” Each comic even has a link to the original version. Considering the remasters are both “alternate” and “additional,” rather than “substitutions,” I really don’t get the anger, at least within the context that several people have CLAIMED is bothering them.
When Lucas remastered Star Wars, he also claimed, only partially correctly, that the originals were destroyed in the process. He did attempt to present the remasters as the ONLY version of the original movies people would ever see again. As your old VHS tapes demagnetized, your Laserdiscs rotted, and your CEDs wore down, you would never be able to watch the original theatrical versions again. Lucasfilm made some attempts to round up copies of the negatives, masters, and distribution reels as they found them, but every few years it seems like another one turns up. Lucasfilm also tried to shut down fan edits for a while, but considering you can find hundreds of edits, including 4k remasters of the theatrical releases, available for download, you have to accept that Lucas lost the battle. You can watch any version of Star Wars you want…you just might not be able to buy it from Lucasfilm. It won’t be “official.”
The point being, if you want the ORIGINAL DMotR, you have it. It’s still there. No one is taking it away. No one has even TALKED about taking it away; or editing it. No one has ever suggested you MUST accept the remasters as the ONLY valid version, whether the language gets edited or not. It feels like a lot of the anger expressed is based on finding out someone has a problem with something you like. Someone disagrees with your opinions. Someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET.
It stings even more because this is someone who JUST MIGHT think they have control over something that’s important to you, and they MIGHT try to take it away from you. You like your old, chewed-up ball; and now they’re offering you a NEW ball, but you won’t fall for THAT. It’s a trick. And so you growl every time they try to give you the new ball, and wrap yourself around the old ball, and raise your hackles, and make sure they know you’re bigger than they think you are, and you’re dangerous, and you could destroy EVERYTHING if they try to take your old ball away.
Keep up the good work! I bet if you’d changed the slurs from the start and never mentioned it, the people hating on you wouldn’t have even noticed.
Thanks for giving us this shiny new version of the comic, it’s great to see it with higher res visuals. :)
Hi, I’m a long time reader, seldom commenter, but I’d like to opine here:
IMHO you should de with this blog whatever brings you more joy, satisfaction or contentment.
I’m glad that you chose to preserve and continue Shamus’ legacy. And I’m sure he would be proud of what you’ve done with it, but you don’t “owe” him nor us anything.
Regarding the slurs, I think it would be a good idea to censor them, but leave one or two letters visible so that people can know what were they actually saying without having denigrating language suddenly shoved in their faces.
Also, I’m sure if Shamus was doing this remaster himself he would be censoring those words too, because like you said, it’s not 2006 anymore.
A small contingent of the audience will complain, sure, but you can’t please everyone. And most people here would see your decision as reasonable.
Threatening your players with a boring slog… I wonder who had to endure this kind of things but the truth is that probably the GM never words things that way. Sometimes GMs and players have different ideas of what is fun and people voice them out poorly.
Imagine spending weeks or months building a sandbox for your players… and then they ask “but where is the main quest”…
As for changing the comics, there aren’t easy answers. I trust Shamus didn’t use those words in a mean spirited way (he really depicts hows many players talked when he made the comic)
Thanks for posting all of these. I come back every few years to re-read DM of the Rings and Chainmail Bikini, and it was on my return trip yesterday that I discovered that Shamus had passed. I think its very nice of you to do this in memory of your father. I’m picking up two of his books on Amazon, ‘Witch Watch’ and ‘How I learned’. I’m thankful that the site is still up.
I was wondering if there is anywhere ‘Stolen Pixels’ may have been preserved, since the links on this site only lead to dead pages on the Escapist. (My favorite bit was ‘Left 4 Dumb’ back when I was in college.) I’m glad I was able to find the old comics today through the wayback machine (first time getting it to work, haha) but wanted to see if there is anything official I’m missing.
Take care now.
Another vote for de-slurrifying the remasters here. I get the point about wanting to “preserve a moment in time” or whatever, but that’s not this comic. It would be one thing if the comic was *about* capturing that moment in time, or if the slurs had any point or relevance, but they don’t. It’s not like this comic is tied to the year 2006 in any way. Updating the problematic language won’t hurt anyone’s enjoyment, while keeping them definitely makes it harder for some people to enjoy.
Another vote for this!! Now that comic is *totally* about preserving a moment in time. A fresh reaction to games when they came out. I remember the Dragon Age Origins comics being especially funny.
Unfortunately Stolen Pixels is property of the escapist, so I don’t believe we can repost any of it unless they gave it up. Even with their recent decisions I imagine if/when they go down the parent company is going to hoard the IPs.
I support you guys in what you’re doing and what you feel you have to do. This is your time, do what you think is best.
I really enjoy these retrospectives, I remember when they were first posted and the additional context and second-glance is good. I would say change what you feel needs changing or updating, you’re not obligated to make stuff you find objectionable when you could adjust it to convey the intended meaning without the bigotry.
A lot of the words, and opinions of the gamers presented in the comic were very very true to life when the comic was posted. They were not universal, but were universally recognized. The standards of an ‘averagely amount of shittiness’ of a random tabletop player has changed, and someone with the same sort of motives, urges, or empathy as the characters wouldn’t use those words or exact jokes anymore, they’d use the currently somewhat acceptable shitty joke.
I wholeheartedly agree with removing the slurs. If some people take issue with it, they can always read the originals. Loving the site, keep up the great work!
My own thoughts regarding slurs and censorship… I don’t like the idea of fundamentally changing the personalities of the characters as distasteful as they may be (Especially Aragorn), but I don’t think changing the slurs is a problem, especially when they’re just being used as synonyms for “Lame’ or “stupid” rather than an intentional attack on a marginalized group.
It can’t be censorship if it is your own site is it? Especially not if the originals are still there. Keep doing what you are doing and ignore the haters. For every negative person there are at least 10 positive persons who do not comment. I also hardly ever comment anymore, yet I am still happily reading this site.
I find it amazing how sensitive people who complain about others “pandering” to sensitive people can be. This isn’t changing history, its retelling a made-up story and stories have always evolved over time. The LOTR movies were an interpretation of the books and didn’t copy it word for word. Even they have an extended version. People complaining about changing The Little Mermaid from the original Disney one don’t seem to mind the original Disney one also changed the original story it copied. Same with Sleeping Beauty. These are fictional made up stories. They’re meant to be changed and re-interpreted over time. Sometimes its little changes, sometimes its re-interpretations of ideas. Keep it up. It’s interesting to see how things written only 10-20 years ago can be interpreted today and changing a word here and there certainly doesn’t tarnish Shamus’ memory for me. If he had done it himself, I expect he would have done the same as he seemed quite self aware.
“Let’s rescue our dear friends, whose names escape me at the moment.”
To talk about something actually interesting: That’s got to be one of Aragorn’s best lines.
Aragorn’s players’ line has stuck firmly in my head since I first read this comic. I use it every chance I get in-game.