## DM of the Rings CXX:Luck Thief

By Shamus
on Jul 2, 2007
Filed under:
DM of the Rings
 ← DM of the Rings CXIX:Oops. DM of the Rings CXXI:Blasphemy! →

There are a limited number of “twenties” in any given d20. That is, no matter how many times you roll a d20, you cannot roll another twenty once the supply has run out. These twenties can only be replenished by rolling a corresponding one with the same die. Thus every gamer is duty-bound to protect their supply of good rolls. If a friend rolls a twenty using your die, not only have they stolen your good roll, but they have doomed you to the extra one required to replenish the twenty.

Some players get excited when they roll several twenties in a row, concluding the dice are “hot”. Don’t make this blunder! This is like driving your car for 400 miles without gassing up, and then concluding that your car is a perpetual motion machine. After a few good rolls, pass the die off to an unwitting companion and let them charge it up for you.

Statisticians have known about this behavior for years. They call it “the probability seesaw”. Unlike the bell-shaped curve, in the seesaw system the odds of rolling high or low is directly proportional to what has been rolled in the past. They usually pretend this isn’t true. If a statistician hands you a die insisting that “any given roll has the same odds of rolling a one or a twenty”, it means he’s handing you a depleted die in the hopes of taking advantage of you. Don’t fall for it!

Now the secret is yours. Please put this knowledge to good use*.

*By “good use” I mean, “take advantage of other players”.

is a programmer, an author, and nearly a composer. He works on this site full time. If you’d like to support him, you can do so via Patreon or PayPal.

 ← DM of the Rings CXIX:Oops. DM of the Rings CXXI:Blasphemy! →

1. Jochi says:

For RoxySteve: ???
Celebrate WITH us, but from your POV.
Little Yank boy: Don’t you celebrate Thanksgiving in England?
Smiling Brit: Yes, we do, just not in November.
Puzzled kid: OH? When do YOU celebrate Thanksgiving?
Brit: On the 4th of July.

2. Sara says:

61 lastakodo Says:
July 2nd, 2007 at 5:08 pm

It might just be my own group but no matter how poorly a player rolls if he/she is the GM they will never stop rolling phenomenally well, that is until they become a player again.
—-
See, it’s the reverse for our group. My husband rolls 20s for the NPC he’s toting around for us, and then rolls critical fumbles for all those huge, high CR creatures he’s spent all week imagining for us. And we don’t do so badly… Of course, I don’t touch my blue dice. I think they’re mad at me. My new swirly black ones like me better right now.

3. Alyc says:

As a perpetual poor-roller no matter what I did (dice changing, handing off dice, warming dice up, cooling dice off, putting them all at their highest number up to prime them, putting them at their lowest number up to drain out the bad mojo, you name it, I’ve tried it), I was never so happy as the day that the luck feats were introduced. I have a factotum entirely dedicated to luck feats, and she is the only character I’ve ever had that regularly kicks ass, because I roll 1’s so often. I win!

4. SteveZilla says:

Are you tired of paying for mistakes in a former life? Do you wish you had as much luck as the lucky ba***rd sitting next to you? Had an unfortunate run-in with a Luck Vampire?

Go to Karma Consolidation now!

http://karmaconsolidation.com/

5. Colin says:

Pimp!

6. SteveZilla says:

Small nitpick. Panel #5 looks to be just a crop of #2.

7. Dave says:

Hmm.. I agree with all your 20-sided die logic.. But I have a question.. or maybe it’s more of a problem…

Dear Shamus… I have a problem. I have a d20 that is cursed. It has always rolled 6 or less. I have had this die since (pauses and thinks).. yikes! since the late 70s. It is a crystal blue die with paint-washed in red numbers… I know it’s cursed.. that is not the problem.. The problem is.. that when I really need a 20.. I am always tempted to grab this die and roll it.. it MUST be due.. it HAS to have a 20 in it. But as always.. less than 6.. usually under 3.. often a 1.

Now I understand that these numbers are as hard to roll as any.. I don’t hate the die. It is what it is.. cursed.

I did hand it off to someone once.. and they rolled a few high numbers with it. Yet, I don’t think it is used up.. I truely believe that it was just tempting me further. Showing me that those numbers do exist. Yet this just makes me more likely to use it and fail a desperately needed save.

Nope.. it is cursed.

My question is this.. How do I get rid of it?

Polyhedrally yours,

Dave

Thanks for listening.

8. Dragonkiri says:

These stories about “punishing” and “executing” dice are just about the best thing I’ve read in a reaaaaally long time!

9. haysoos says:

I have a set of dice (3d6) that seem to swing back and forth to either end of the probability seesaw with every roll.

Since we usually play GURPS, this means that they always seem to roll low on the first roll (which in GURPS is very good – as the ‘to hit’ roll is rolled under the skill level), and then high on the next roll (which is usually the damage roll).

My players have taken to calling them the “Evil GM Dice” and have grown to fear their appearance on the gaming table.

I love my Evil GM Dice.

10. Scarlet Knight says:

“Jochi Says:
Puzzled kid: OH? When do YOU celebrate Thanksgiving?
Brit: On the 4th of July.”

Oooo, that’s funny!

Maybe this day IS a good time to remember all the contributions Mother England gave to role playing?
Even with Yankee ingenuity, where would D&D be without King Arthur, The Tower, Richard the Lion Heart,Thee’s & Thou’s, Monty Python, and of course, Professor Tolkien, himself.

Now, let us celebrate in a truly American fashion, by eating as many hotdogs as humanly possible….

11. ChristianII says:

Aragorns face in the last panel is perfect.

12. inq101 says:

The other rule about dise is whenever you say ‘anything but a …’ that number is certain to turn up. If someone jinxes your dice (‘you need anything but a one to kill the goblen’) You can confuse the dice with a cry of ‘Anything but Pi’

13. Roxysteve says:

[inq101] I like it!

Steve

14. Dernwine says:

[Roxysteve] No I didn’t actually know that there was an alternate translation, however the image still remains, that he is putting everything on the throw of a dice (but then again don’t we all :D)

By the way I have a love/hate relationship with this comic, I love it because its so funny, but I hate it because it reminds me that I don’t have a D&D group right now :(

15. Sevenhills says:

A few years ago I bought a bargain bag of 20 d6s for £1 at a convention. I used them in a demo game, and as soon as one of them rolled a number I didn’t want I threw it away. By the end, I had 6 proven lucky dice left.

16. SteveDJ says:

I wonder what would happen if a GM made an outcome table that had all the good stuff not at the end for high numbers, and not at the end for low numbers, but instead positioned in the middle of the table.

So, the GM says to roll a d20. The player asks if they need to roll high, or low. The GM laughs and says “No, something in the middle”!

That would surely confuse the dice! :)

17. Carl the Bold says:

[RoxySteve] My favorite July 4 memory was many years ago; John Cleese was on Letterman a few days before Independence Day. Letterman asked the banal question, “Do you guys celebrate July 4th over there?”

Cleese: “Actually, um, we celebrate on July 3rd. We call it ‘Dependence Day’, and we take statues of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the like and we put them up in our town squares, and we jeer at them all day long. ‘Don’t you think it’s about time you got a little more independent?!'”

Good times. Good times.

BTW, a d20 is an icosohedron–a d12 is a dodecahedron.

Cheers.

18. 5h4n6 says:

to [post #45]

from wikipedia on Dice: ‘Plastic dice can be biased to roll a certain number by heating them (for example in an oven) with the desired face upward, so that the plastic will soften slightly and “pool” at the opposite (bottom) side of the die without showing much, if any, visible distortion.’ So, the dude of the microwave oven might have been, in fact, very near to the solution to his problem, however, that IS cheating. :P

I think that the very reason we play RPGs is to have fun. I do recognize it involves math, thinking, lots of creativity and intelligence and the truth is, believing our dice can behave this or that way is part of the whole deal. But the essence is the same: to have fun, and literally roll with the dice :P

And also… is it me or the anti-spam word is always the same?

19. 5h4n6 says:

Although, brassbaboon’s theory of quantum dice is really interesting :D

well, if light does it… :D

Oh noes! A one!

FUMBLE!

21. Jindra34 says:

Nearly 150? how can we still be on topic? post 149. and never enforce critical failure rules on attack roles. It quickly reuses the 20’s they gain from rolling 1’s

22. Jindra34 says:

Shamus can i get a list of all the comments that could appear up top?

23. Isoyami says:

Wow, over 150 comments and still going strong! Sweet.

Yea, Aragon better take his lucky dice back… we all know what happened the last time Gimli made a diplomacy check for the Rohirrim.

That joke just never gets old. :D

(Oh, BTW, where is the comic for today?)

And happy 4th of July for all the American types!

24. Dannerman says:

Dernwine I know exactly how you feel.

25. Theron says:

I’m cursed.

D6 are my bane, I can’t roll stats, or damage, or, well, anything with a d6. Playing the old Chapmpions was positively humiliating. And when I played a wizard, it was pathetic.

Me I throw a fireball
Them: hehehe
Me: 9 d6, that’s… 14 total.
Them: snicker

My only recompense was in killing other players. If the GM wanted them dead, he would simple possess my character and it was crit city with lots and lots of damage. It didn’t happen often, but I lived for the clarion call to attack the party!

On the other hand there was Reggie, who always rolled way high. I sat in and watched him play Champions just to record his average. Over hundreds of d6 die rolls, he averaged a bit over 4.2.

I’m a big believer that the law of averages is really more of a “suggestion”.

26. Severed Hand says:

I got a friend (with whom I don’t play d&d anymore, for various reaosns) who is currently studying quantum mechanics at university. I remember he once spent about 20 minutes trying to argue that the critical I rolled on an opponents power attack wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t changed dice just before, because the old ones were being pathetic and making the combats way too easy.

27. inq101 says:

We used to have a manager in my local Games Workshop who could aparently alter the laws of probability by entering the room. No d6 ever rolled greater than a 3 in his presence. I saw one game of 40K where no-one scored a single hit for the first 3 turns (total game casualties were something like 12 at the end). Even today, the store veterans believe that the verry mention of his name will jinx any game in progress.

28. Valley says:

Ohhh… I’ve been doing it wrong for so many years. Dice have to be train and punished. Good tip.

29. Retlor says:

Personally I’ve instituted a harsh training regimen for my dice. They must be turned desired face up at the beginning of the day. They break for lunch at midday, when they may spend an hour or so relaxing in a soft, velvet dice bag. Then back to training for another few hours. Personally, I don’t like to punish dice too much, as all of mine get petulant when I do. Does anyone know the ideal diet of a die?

Some of the other players in my group will turn their dice lowest side up. Apparently this is an offering to their mystical ‘dice gods’ so he will take all of their 1s away. I don’t believe in the dice gods, though, prefering to use a scientific method of training.

30. Steve says:

inq101 in post 140:

I agree with you. I was playing a game of Warhammer a few months ago (my Dwarfs versus my friend’s Dark Elves). He managed to charge two chariots with spiked wheels into one of my units. 1d6+1 impact hits for each chariot.

Just before he rolled, I yelled “Snake-eyes!” You can guess what he rolled. Luckily he didn’t roll that well to wound, but when you’re rolling _fourteen_ dice to try to wound, you don’t need to roll very well to have an impact (pun intended.)

31. Hoyce says:

Loved the Stephen Furst pic…

32. Cenobite says:

Microwaving is nice, but what can you do if your dice are made completely out of metal?

33. Roxysteve says:

[Carl the Bold] I’m a British ex-pat, married to a massively cute US woman who gave me a supermassively cute baby girl a dacade and a half ago and we normally run a july 3rd party (on or about: we pick the weekend just before or just after the real thing) so that people can come to ours and go to a real one. This year we didn’t, and people have been phoning up to ask why (a bathroom renovation took up all the free time and we just forgot it in the chaos).

One year I wore red and made everyone immigrate before they could have delicious viands and refreshing beverages, but I haven’t done anything like that since. Note: No-one refused to come in, possibly because I had stuff on the barbecue and the “immigration” point was downwind.

I don’t really do any of that black ribbon/half mast stuff of course. My daughter’s tree house normally flies Old Glory from when we get up to sunset, at which time guess who has to remember the rules and respectfully take it down (the Americans chez mois are typically asleep in the sun or too busy arguing about The Twighlight Zone, Black Adder or Shakespeare or whatever else they want to have a frank exchange of views about to remember by then).

Indeed, the meanest I’ve been to Americans at one of these affairs was about 18 years ago when I was keen on parlour magic and had a dozen of them on the hook for an hour with the old “knot tying rope” gag. Latecomers could not figure out why everyone was sitting about with lengths of rope and waggling their arms about. Best part – Jeff the Kung-fu Accountant getting metaphysical and trying to ‘will’ the knot to happen.

Personally, I love July 4th. Ich bin ein hamburger.

Steve.

34. Roxysteve says:

[Cenobite] Re: metal dice.

Nip down to Home Despot and buy yourself a 4lb single-jack hammer (aka “Lump Hammer”). The answer will then present itself.

In fact you’ll rarely be at a loss for what to do in any situation once you have your trusty lump hammer at your side.

I wrote a song about my lump hammer. It’s called “My Happy Place Has A Hammer In It (Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang)“.

Steve.

35. Doom Chicken says:

My friends hate me when I call die rolls.

They’ll be rolling their d20 to hit something, I’ll yell “1!” and they roll a 1. This has happened countless times. A couple times, I’ve even called the number on a percentile roll. Almost every time I call a roll, that’s the number that comes up. I think it’s hilarious.

36. Pffh says:

So am I the only one that has had a ritual sacrifice of a bad dice with a knife to torture the dice before eventually soaking it in petrol and throwing it on a open fire while the rest of my die sat on a nearby table to watch?

37. brassbaboon says:

I think there’s a clear dividing line between RPG gamers who believe that the dice have inherent attributes (such as evilness or memory) and those who believe that dice are simply the conduit whereby the underlying universe itself inflicts its capricious desires on them.

I fall into the latter category. I assume my dice are innocently doing the will of the fates, and I am sure they are much happier when they are allowed to roll critical hits than when forced to roll critical fumbles.

In general I tend to not be a “blame the messenger” sort of guy. My problems, and they are legend, with the capriciousness of games of chance is not the fault of the dice. And they can’t be fixed by finding different dice. That’s because “luck” is a far more profound and deeper manifestation of the will of the universe than can be explained by any single piece of plastic, bone or wood.

How I wish that were not so, and that I could find some “lucky dice” to correct my serious luck deficiencies, but alas that search long ago proved fruitless.

Bottom line in my case is, it’s not the dice. So why would I torture those poor innocent creatures who are already suffering enough just having to produce the results the universe mandates? It’s not their fault. Poor little things.

As I said, it’s all about the quantum nature of chance… The truth lies in the quantum foam at the very limits of our awareness and imagination…

38. M&a says:

Ah, the good (and bad) times with the dice.

First D&D session ever rolled a 20 in a barroom brawl (borrowed a friend’s dice). I knew that had to be either really good or really bad, and was pretty sure it was bad.
Me: “Is that good?”
DM: “Were you trying to kill him?”
Me: “Uh… no?”
DM: “OK, then what WERE you trying to do…”

Suffice it to say the offender found himself pinned to the wall of the tavern with a javelin through the ear. Not one of my finer moments, but hilarious for my first encounter.

When I went and bought my own dice, they weren’t nearly as agreeable. I cursed at their ability to roll low frequently… about as much as I cursed at the DM’s dice for rolling high. Finally after complaining to the DM (who also happened to be my now husband), we compared dice.

The sum of the opposite sides of the dice should equal n+1, where n = the number of sides on the dice. Thus 20 should be opposite 1, 19 should be opposite 2, 18 should be opposite 3, etc. The DM’s dice followed this rule. The alignment of my dice was just plain weird.

Those dice were sequestered to a dark corner and I went and bought some properly numbered dice… which in comparison are pleasantly balanced. Now I just need to find a lucky set of dice *eyes her husband’s dice*.

39. Scarlet Knight says:

“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our dice,
But in ourselves, that we are pc’s.”

40. Lorgin says:

A few years ago, we were playing a Vampire campaign with our GM who, I must point out, is evil both in and out of the game. In Vampire, rolls are made using large numbers of ten-siders – you need to roll above a certain number, but every “1” you roll takes away one good roll. If you roll more 1’s than successes, you botch.

One evening, one of the players was having a fantastic run. His dice were rolling 8’s, 9’s and 10’s (which are particularly good ‘cos you can re-roll them for extra successes. And Jack was very happy with himself, announcing every roll with glee.

Until he had to go to the bathroom.

After he’d left the gaming room, the GM stood up and came around the table, then before we realized what she was doing, leaned forward and touched each of his dice before we could stop her – just tapping them with her fingertip. Then she went back to her seat.

Jack came back, and we started the next round of the combat. When it came to his turn, we all watched his dice carefully. He picked them up, with a confident smile, threw them onto the table. About 4 1’s, a couple of 2’s and 3’s and maybe a 6 or 7. Fumble.

Next round I think was just a failure, but over the rest of the night, he fumbled so much and barely scored a success. After ten minutes he was getting unnerved by the giggling from the rest of us, and we had to tell him what happened. “How could you let her curse my dice?” he wailed.

It was hilarious to watch – but more importantly we all learned an important lesson. To this day, if anyone has a good night rolling, if they leave the room the instruction goes round the table – “Don’t let Conny touch my dice”

41. lorgin says:

Sorry – forgot the obligatory “Great work Shamus, keep it up” comment.

Great work Shamus, keep it up.

42. Falxo says:

This is absolutely true… When you roll dices “for fun” outside the game and get several twenties, you’ve made a terrible mistake and are doomed to fail every action you’re going to perform once the game has started. Basic RPG rule that EVERY SINGLE NEW PLAYER should learn before they make this mistake.

43. Parzival says:

Corollary rule: Never play a dice-based wargame against a child. Dice favor minors.

44. davwalp says:
45. Obfuscato says:

I really have to wonder about most dice not being true. I’ve had too many board games that had lopsided dice. Even the weight removed from incised numbers has gotta have an effect in the long run, which is why the casinos paint numbers instead of cutting them into the plastic. Cheats will use paint with dense metals for the side they want down, and swap in their dice. It’s enough.

I once bought some standard-looking clear green plastic dice from a local liquor store. I was getting 7 and 11 rolls like crazy. Finally checked them, and found I got what are called sharps and flats – the down side faces are made slightly larger. I find out much later the clerk screwed up by selling \$20 under-the-counter cheater dice for 89 cents. Even though I’d hide them away, the dice had powers to influence others’ minds to find them, and they would somehow make their way into board games over and over again.

46. johnnychan says:

This is HILARIOUS.

Well done, dude.

47. Toil3T says:

“Now the secret is yours. Please put this knowledge to good use*.

*By “good use” I mean, “take advantage of other players”.”

Will do. I never really liked our psion…
(Just kidding- or am I?)

Hey, I wonder if this’ll be the first comic to breach the 200 mark with its comments?

48. Tengokujin says:

I disbelieve you all.

Disbelieve! Disbelieve!

Rather, I entrust my arm to do a precision routine of precisely throwing the dice in an exact fashion that results in one number.

This method has proven to give me a 16 on a d20 for the most part.

Only when I do get overzealous do I overdo the throw and the die rolls to a 1.

But I know where the problem is: it’s me and my throwing hand for not being precise enough.

(Seriously, I try to throw my dice in exactly the same fashion, with the exactly the same positioning, every single time… it might not necessarily be the best number, but it’s a consistent number.)

49. f;oah says:

I heard another theory about dice: put a d20 in the microwave with the 1 facing up, then line up the rest of your dice in front of the microwave. Close the door and cook a d20. They will larn, and they will never roll a 1 again. Great comic.

50. Doug says:

M&a: “The alignment of my dice was just plain weird”.

Nothing weird about the alignment of my dice. Plain, straight-down-the-middle, just like Momma used to make… chaotic evil.

51. Mina says:

Gimli made me laugh so hard… that was too fing classic!

52. Speak for yourself, Shamus. I have an Iron Law of My Luck.

A) Low roll for random encounter, trap, what have you. This means it will be difficult to solve.

B) High roll for solving the problem. Once, we stole an antlion’s tusk from its mouth then robbed the chests it was guarding. Got more experience for not killing it. True story.

C) High roll for loot. That means the chests in question are filled to the brim with rare and powerful goodies.

D) High random encounter. This usually means finding another treasure chest.

E) Repeat A-D several times.

F) Scripted event solved by high rolls.

Whether D10s or D20s, I charge every dice I use with luck.

53. MSchmahl says:

So, in the annotation of the latest Darths and Droids, DMM linked to tvtropes. The article on RandomNumberGod quotes you. I thought you might enjoy this, if you already didn’t know of it.

54. Siosilvar says:

I find that throwing dice that rolled low in the refridgerator works, for some odd reason.

55. dyrnwyn says:

I already knew how a dice work

56. dyrnwyn says:

no, how a die works

57. elopingcamel says:

Even the most rational of minds quiver in fear at the sheer awesome power of spiteful dice.

58. Shorgoth says:

I think I’m probably one of the statisticaly unluckiest person with dices in the world. Here a couple of examples and experiences we made:

Risk, 143 units(for me) 1 for my brother. After the fight: complete defeat for me, my brother still had his 1 unit.

DnD: for 20 rolls I make I have 4.5 1 as result and around .15 20. The other rolls are mostly between 3 and 5. No 2 and that’s kinda curious.

Ars magica: you use a load of d10, 0(10) are actual botch. and 1 are crit reroll gioving you a multiplicator .Once you botch with your first dice you have to roll an amount of dice depending on the situation you are, somtime I had to roll up to 13 d10 in extreme conditions. My average on 10 rolls is: 4 0, 3×2 2×3, the last roll is random and nearly never a 1. On the good side, when I have to roll a fuck ton of dices to see if it’s an actual botch(you need to roll more 0 on the second roll with more dice) I end up not having a true botch with 13 dices.

Constatation: when I touch dices they are cursed to never do any good rolls after.

I have 8 d 20, and make a rotation depending on if they roll good or not. Sometime I’m a bit luckyer and can make 2 or 3 rolls higher than 5 in a row so I keep the dice until he run out of strenght again then I switch.

A friend who wasen’t supersticious at first took my d10, his character ended up dead due to multiples botchs while he was climbing a tree using magic. First he botched his spell, ending 1 feet from his target position, then he botched on 4 consecutive rolls trying to catch a branche. After that every rolls he made with my dices endeed up similarly. After a couple of game cession with my dices he finaly bought a new set and was scared of touching my dices again. Every time he accidentaly touch my dices he is cursed by bad luck.

I don’t get benefit from draining luck from other player’s dice.

I finaly found a way to play a game without being slave of my dice, I play mutants and mastermind and I took the power: probability control at lvl 10: it mean once per turn I can take a dice and before roling it I can anounce it’s a minimum 10 on the roll. I can then roll the dice and if it’s a 9- on the result I get a default 10. This is the only way I’ve found up to now.

59. Some random guy says:

I already knew about the dice rules. I usually play with peoples with out dice, so I let them use my dice… after I use up the high rolls.

60. Sulacu says:

I don’t really buy this statistical dilemma. When I roll my d20, there’s nothing for it but for me to commit to the result. After the action decided by the d20 has taken place, the roll result is in the past. Ignoring your previous rolls is – to my knowledge – the best way to treat your personal d20.

Still, there can’t really be two mutually exclusive probabilities for rolling a d20 at any given time, can there? The ‘probability seesaw’ derives its distribution from making retrospective assumptions regarding conditional probability;

Sure, rolling a natural 20 with the condition that the previous roll is also a natural 20 is a 400:1 chance, but only insofar as you haven’t yet made the first roll. After that first blessed natural 20 oozes from your die, it changes from being probability to being certainty and the probability of the second is 1/20, same as always.

So, that’s why I let my players bring one d20 and stick to it. When my players treat their d20s as ‘luck capacitors’ and try to go about exchanging them after a discharge of high rolls, I occasionally give them a ‘Jester’s Gambit’. When I do, it means that the first natural 1 that is rolled by that player from the point that the gambit is given becomes a natural 20, or the first natural 20 becomes a natural 1. It helps dissolve the boundaries between good and bad luck, and makes them realize that the probability for total failure and irrefutable success are equal, whilst at the same time getting rid of a lot of infighting about dice. For let’s be honest, rolling a 1 or a 20 would be both good and bad luck in such a situation.

61. Sulacu says:

Forgive the double post

62. Shamus says:

No problem, it happens. :)

63. Gravaviel says:

Dear Shamus, your logic is epic.

64. […] Tabletop Thursday – The Superstitions of Dice If a statistician hands you a die insisting that “any given roll has the same odds of rolling a one or a twenty”, it means he’s handing you a depleted die in the hopes of taking advantage of you. Don’t fall for it! – Shamus Young, Twenty Sided Tales […]

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