Spoiler Warning S4E38: I Like the Bass

By Mumbles Posted Wednesday Feb 16, 2011

Filed under: Spoiler Warning 187 comments

Link (YouTube)

This is my formal apology for being the team’s grape paladin (a near-perfect balance between paragon and renegade that has both red and blue in its own color!). If you’ve been watching the show for a while, you might have realized I can be a bit of a bleeding heart. Too many times you have heard a variation of, “What’s that, Josh? There’s a dying Batarian who needs a little med-gel? Sweet jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, give him some! Paragon that interrupt as hard as you can!” I honestly never believed saving a couple dying aliens would come back to bite me in the ass, but here I am with teeth marks on my cheeks. It’s okay, I guess we’ll keep Boobs McGee.

Anyway, I could argue that’s what the Spoiler Warning team gets for enlisting the indisputably cheeriest person on the show, but I don’t want to get fired. Well, fired implies I get paid for this in anything except a bloody Echo Bazaar addiction and Livestream commercials about how to feed the children I don’t have.


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187 thoughts on “Spoiler Warning S4E38: I Like the Bass

  1. Sydney says:

    I think if you recruit Morinth, Kelly should vanish from her post and turn up mysteriously dead in the cargo hold.

    1. Alexander The 1st says:

      Mysteriously dead and only found while Smelly?

    2. Integer Man says:

      Wait – which Kelly?

      It’d be nice if there was another name that would help us differentiate between that nice Kelly who helps with the maps and the other one I hear talking sometimes.

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Well Rutskarn seem to call them differently.I think he calls the nice one kelly,while he calls the other one…Oh whats the word?It rhymes with kelly…I think its shelly,or something?

        1. krellen says:

          Mumbles, I am sorry I started the “pick on Mumbles” trend.

          1. Kanodin says:

            I thought Rutskarn started it?

          2. Daemian Lucifer says:

            You did?Rutskarn wasnt the first?

            EDIT:Damn you ninja and your blue ninja face!With a monocle???

          3. Slothful says:

            Nope. God started it.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          We seem to have broken Mumbles.She lost her gold coulour.

          1. Integer Man says:

            Eh. It’s okay. We’ll get back to telling her how awesome she is sometime. I just had to jump on the olfactory train.

      2. ehlijen says:

        I find it easy to distinguish between YeoKell and MumbKell.

  2. Psithief says:

    There isn’t a definition of grape paladin anywhere, so you should post a definition IN TEXT if you use a strange phrase!

    1. Mumbles says:

      Damn, I forgot not everyone is privy to my inane inside jokes.

      1. Desgardes says:

        But, was it inside when it was on spoiler warning? It’s infinitely superior to Grey Paladins, because they are so refreshing, and go much better in collections of Banana rogues, Apple clerics, and pineapple rangers.

        1. Integer Man says:

          I always played as a Mt. Dew elemental.

          1. RTBones says:

            Coffee golem here.

            1. RejjeN says:

              Caffeine slug here…

              1. Velkrin says:

                Stimulant Stirge…

            2. ehlijen says:

              Ah, Mordenkainen’s house of chocolate, filled with chocolate guard golems.

              Fun times. Official adventure, too.

      2. Hitch says:

        If anyone doesn’t have the dedication to go back and watch ever episode of Spoiler warning (or at least the last month or so), they deserve to miss some of the references.

        Related tangentially to that and a discussion inside the video, there was a (now defunct, I believe) webcomic made with screenshots from WoW that featured a Night Elf who used “kittens” as a curse…derived from the phrase “sweater kittens.” It was highly confusing coming in after the explanation and trying to figure out why she was saying “kittens” at inappropriate times.

      3. RTBones says:

        Inside, outside, ain’t nothin’ but a thang. It may not be hip to be square, but since the warning’s been spoiled, we’re hip to your jive.

    2. Piflik says:

      It’s similar to a Grope Paladin, but less saucy…

      1. Mumbles says:

        Which, admittedly, I can turn into on any given Friday night.

        1. Zah says:

          Bad touch! Bad touch!

        2. RTBones says:

          Angels and ministers of grace, defend us! (5 points if you get that reference)

          1. Desgardes says:

            But I don’t *wanna* drink my poison!

  3. Zah says:

    Jacob and Morinth romance. A heavy risk but the prize!

  4. Mincecraft says:

    If you take Morinth, She kills you at the end of the game I’m sure.

    1. Sydney says:

      Not outright, no. But she does try to convince you to have sex with her if you talk to her postgame. And that kills you.

      1. Integer Man says:

        Hey, it’d prevent a Mass Effect 3

        1. Desgardes says:

          No, because collector remnants would run their own lazarus project and get you back into fighting form, before sending you to fight some reapers. You’ve been fighting rogue elements this whole game. Tragic to see them misuse the collectors’ noble ideals.

          1. PurePareidolia says:

            OH GOD I CAN SEE IT NOW!
            By destroying the collector ship you’d free them from their mind control and you’d form an uneasy alliance of convinience because the collector general has reaper information which always turns out to be a trap but you never just ditch that guy because the writers won’t let you.

      2. ehlijen says:

        Death by Snusnu :D

  5. Alexander The 1st says:

    You can only choose the option if you have enough renegade/paragon points, which is odd, but yeah. You have to resist her to take her on your team. Every other option, that I know of, you can choose.

    It might’ve been that you didn’t make it through to that last choice last time, which may have done it, but yeah, I’m fairly certain you need all paragon/renegade to do it.

    1. Kavonde says:

      It seems like some kind of bug. I had a very, very strongly Renegade Shepard who didn’t get the option to side with Morinth, and I was pretty sad about it. When the choice does appear, you have an infinite amount of time to decide. Of course, like Shamus said, considering all you know about Morinth is that she’s this pretentious emo hipster and she’s not as hot as her mom, why would anyone but a deliberately Chaotic Stupid Shep recruit her?

      1. Simon Buchan says:

        To get Dominate on your next playthrough?

        1. Kavonde says:

          Oh yeah. Good call.

  6. poiumty says:

    For the record, you need to have enough paragon/renegade points to resist all her charms to get the option to keep Morinth. Josh doesn’t have NEARLY enough of those mostly because he hasn’t maxed his class skill. I think. Anyway you need like 90% or something.

    Also for the record, she dresses like her mother and mimics her speech. The only times she’ll be Morinth is when she’s speaking to you in private (and only in personality), otherwise she’ll be Samara. It’ll be your dirty little secret.
    I could really see you getting Morinth for a reason other than “let’s just be stupid”, seeing how you went on and on about the stupidity of Samara’s code.

    Also, Mumbles? The conversation is a “pick the things you heard she likes” minigame. Like if she goes “i like music”, you go “I HEARD ABOUT EXPEL 10” and she’ll be all like “YOU LIKE THE SAME BAND OMGOMGOMG”. Apparently she goes fangirl on people who have vaguely heard of the things she likes. Goes to show just how much of a hipster she is.

    1. Sydney says:

      Well, there are a few times when she loses it and drops the act. And like four different people can tell it isn’t Samara anymore anyway.

      1. poiumty says:

        Really? I never came across them. Would have been cool to see. I just kept her loyalty quest for last because of the huge points requirement to get her.

        1. Vect says:

          It’s usually not so much they can tell it’s not Samara as it is they recognize “something’s wrong with her since that mission”. Chambers and Kasumi are the ones that really say anything about it.

          1. Luhrsen says:

            The Shadow Broker knows it’s Morinth. I found out by bringing her.

            1. Vect says:

              Not exactly.

              He’s more “She’s sorta changed since that moment” but he doesn’t really outright say “You brought an Ardat-Yakshi up in here” or something.

      2. Alexander The 1st says:

        Is Joker one of them?

        “Oh, Hey Commander, I’m glad we still have Samara. I was afraid you’d choose the crazy biotic psychopath killer…oh wait.”

        Or something to that extent – it’s been a while, but the way Joker said it was funnier.

        1. John Magnum says:

          I assumed that line was a snipe at Jack.

      3. Raygereio says:

        Only Ke… err, yeoman Chambers, Joker and Kasumi notice anything odd after Morinth takes Samara’s place – I never got a mention from anyone else about it; and even they go “Huh, something’s weird. Nah, it must be my imagination”, they never go “Abandon ship, we got a space-vampire onboard!”

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Funny thing,but its samara that gets the reave power,which drains the health and gives it to you.

        2. Sydney says:

          Mordin and Grunt can have conversations with Morinth with her act dropped on Tuchanka.

          1. Raygereio says:

            Yeah, but they never go: “Hey, who are you? You’re not Samara!”.

            1. Velkrin says:

              Well they turn to look at her and then their eyes go straight down causing them to be fairly uncomfortable so they don’t want to say anything.

    2. Deadpool says:

      Exactly. Long story short, even if you picked EVERY Renegade choice that has come up so far, without level 4 passive you just won’t have enough Renegade points for this scene. Mumbles, you’re off the hook for this one…

    3. Hitch says:

      So if you have enough points to make the choice to choose Morinth the game takes that choice away from you by having her turn into Samara’? Samara’ is exactly like Samara so they don’t have to change anything about any subsequent encounter because you have Morinth instead. Oh well, it’s not the first time a game has done that. Gotta love choosing between option a and option b when a=b.

      1. poiumty says:

        Morinth gets a different loyalty power though. Dominate is probably the best counter to any organic enemy, so i’d see it as more of a gameplay choice than a story one. But even story-wise, there’s a funny feeling on making the transition from Paragon/Renegade Shepard to Devious Shepard.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Well,reave is nice as well.It incapacitates the enemy,and gives you extra health.Its a tough choice.And when you add stasis to the mix,it becomes quite hard to pick just one power to use.

          I prefer dominate myself,but thats because I always play manipulators/summoners when the game has the option.Which is why I did this mission twice,so I could have both samara and dominate.

    4. PurePareidolia says:

      Spoilers: you just pick the bottom left option every time to win.

      1. Aldowyn says:

        Also, just pick the one mentioning something specific.

  7. TSED says:

    Honestly, it’s such a stupid ‘choice.’

    Look at it this way:
    On the one hand, you’ve got a super-magic-paladin who is all “I have sworn to do everything in my power to aid you.”
    On the other hand, you’ve got a super-magic-serial-killer who wants your body (figuratively in her freezer).

    You want to save humanity. Which do you really think would work out better? I mean, really.

    1. Sleeping Dragon says:

      Well, there is that teeny-tiny little bit that Samara mentions around the time she makes her oath. That if you do, or make her do, something that she considers highly immoral she will have to kill you once her oath is fulfilled. Now, considering her code… well, at least with Morinth you know where you stand (especially if you were able to resist her once already)…

      I’m not saying this makes perfect sense, on the other hand if there was an epilogue of “oh, and Samara ripped you to pieces with her biotics for some minor infraction against the local traffic laws” the game wouldn’t really let you dump her anywhere along the way anyway.

      1. Bret says:

        Well, Samara says she’ll be forced to kill you next time you meet if you’re RENEGADE enough. Got that on my latest run.

        But, here’s the thing. She comes with an instruction manual. Nihilus ran into her once and used it to get out scott-free.

        He was a good Spectre. Shepard is much better. Should be easy.

        1. Sleeping Dragon says:

          I had no idea, I actually took Morinth on my renegade playthrough, simply because I was going renegade for the sake of the renegade alone. Nevertheless, while I do imagine we could probably either trick or beat Samara I still wouldn’t want a matriarch on my tail, especially seeing as she could well be tracking me to my deathbed.

          And well, Morinth is only really going to kill you if you let her. I mean, she goes after you largely because you’re (probably) the only prey who managed to resist her. If this was pen and paper RPG I would also say that you can always use the fact that she is an Ardat Yakshi as leverage against her seeing as she is a monstrous criminal it’s pretty much your word against hers as to how she replaced Samara on your crew. (Right, let’s face it, any decent pen and paper team who got their hands on a powerful biotic who could hypnotise people and eat their minds gaining power with each person killed this way would abuse it to the extreme, but I digress.)

          As for Morinth overal, I was SO disappointed in that character. She pretty much has just one dialogue back on the Normandy, as far as commenting on the missions goes her lines are, with only very few exceptions, same as Samara’s. (Spoiler tags just in case, though I think someone might have mentioned this in the episode, not sure?) Which kinda makes sense seeing as she is for all intents and purposes pretending to be Samara but at the same time is disappointing, like they added this idea kinda last minute and didn’t want to write/record more lines. Also, one of her battle calls is “feel (or fear, or something) the power of the Ardat Yakshi!”, so much for secrecy I guess… Also, I may be wrong but I think Morinth doesn’t even have her log in the SBs files? At least I didn’t get any and at the same time I lost access to Samara’s…

          1. Vect says:

            Well, in Samara’s file you learn that Morinth’s real name is “Mirala” and about how Samara’s other two non-evil mutant freak daughters are locked up in some prison-fortress or something. The Shadow Broker mentions something around the lines of how “The Justicar” has “changed agendas” or something.

          2. Bret says:

            Well, returning to the upside of picking the crazy paladin over the hipster vampire, Samara did say she and Shep were friends.

            Friends who’d have to kill each other if they meet again, but that just means it’s a relationship staying at Christmas card distance.

            Through an intermediary.

            We all have friends like that, right?

            1. krellen says:

              Sounds like the sort of friends Krogan make.

    2. eric says:

      It really is a stupid choice, really only there because BioWare couldn’t come up with a better way to integrate Paragon/Renegade into the quest. Instead of having Moronith justify herself to Shepard (maybe they fight, Shepard gets the upper hand but notices Moronith’s power and considers recruiting her, which means taking out Samara), they just decided to call in Jerkass Shepard. Awesome.

  8. Integer Man says:

    This is in no way related to this post, but somewhat related to previous posts.

    Shamus has a five part analysis of Mordin and Mass Defect 2 (which, incidentally, I greatly appreciate) and keeps mentioning System Shock 2.

    Have you written anything on System Shock 2? I’d love to read it, but I can’t find it anywhere on the site after a quick search.

    If not, you really, really should. I played the game and enjoyed it, but would love to see a written exposition on why it’s one of your favorites.

    Maybe we’ll get lucky and you guys will do System Shock or System Shock 2 in Spoiler Warning, but that’s more of a stream of thought thing vs a long monologue on the topic.

    1. Integer Man says:

      Bah. I guess I didn’t look far back enough. I saw http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=186 which I’m pretty sure I’ve read before.

      Anyway, writing more would always be appreciated. Fun game. Definitely worth more than two playthroughs.

      1. Desgardes says:

        You could read his fanfiction!

        1. Integer Man says:

          Is that the one where Tali and Shodan are seeing each other?

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            No,its one of those boring non sexual fanfics.

            Just kidding,its worth a read:

          2. krellen says:

            No, it’s the one where EDI and Joker “become one”.

            1. Daemian Lucifer says:

              Wait,thats not what happens in the game itself?

              1. Zukhramm says:

                I’m pretty sure it happened in my game. Did you make sure you had enough Paragon/Renegade points krellen?

                1. Irridium says:

                  Yeah, you can’t get to the final pages unless your paragon or renegade bars are high enough.

  9. Eli says:

    It really doesn’t make much sense that having Morinth mind controlling you would force you to kill her. I’d think failing that alignment check would make you choose her, which would make a reason to have her as a shipmate.

    1. Deadpool says:

      Well, when you can’t resist her, she doesn’t WANT to join you.

      When you DO resist her, she talks to you like the whole fight, making her pitch to join you because you impressed her.

    2. poiumty says:

      If you can’t resist her, having her on the ship would be severely detrimental to your health.

      If you CAN resist her, she’s no threat to you, therefore you can make use of her. Note that she can’t mind control you to the point of permanently switching your allegiance, just briefly make you say “yes”.

      1. Aldowyn says:

        Plus she kind of got distracted by the vengeful paladin.

  10. Raygereio says:

    I have to ask: “hipster”? Wasn’t that some American term back in the 40’s or 50’s for kids that liked anything as long as it wasn’t mainstream? Has that silly term come back for some odd, unfathomable reason?

    As for the option to go for the goth/emo-parody and kill cleavage-granny: you only get that if you have enough paragon/renegade points to resist Morinth’s mind-trick-thingey right before Samara bursts in.
    Edit: as poiumty already mentioned, nevermind.

    1. Desgardes says:

      Ha, how sweet innocence is. Hipster is a conflagration of the new “irony”. It’s come back for a not unfathomable reason. Instead of jazz, they seek out the newest avant garde artistes while trying to both emulate their namesake while distancing themselves from the label of hipster. There is a difference, though, in that hipsters nowadays are doing it without point. Their pursuits are the end, not a means of rejection of their norms.

      1. Integer Man says:

        I was ignoring the hipster trend before ignoring the hipster trend was big!

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Im such a nonconformist that Im not going to conform with the rest of you.

          Mmm,goth served.

          I love that show.

          (ha,beat that amount of non connected references,while staying on topic)

      2. Raygereio says:

        Oh, so it’s just like emos, goths and all other idiots than want to be different… just different in the exact same way everyone else is. Got it, thanks.

        1. Desgardes says:

          It’s why mumbles is a bad hipster. She keeps trying to share her experiences with people. P’shaa, she’s totally running the risk of ruining her hard earned cred.

      3. Audacity says:

        I always find it amusing how rebellious non-conformity has become the de facto modern conformity. If only there were a way to use this for stylistic good; though I doubt shouting, “Hey, kids, you know what The Man hates? Fedoras!” would be very effective.

        See I’m so non-hipster that I’m ignoring the modern ignoring of the current hipster trend in preparation for the next wave of ignoring the ignoring of the modern ignoring of the current hipster trend. This way I’ll be hip and jive when my grandkids are ignoring… You get the idea.

  11. Volatar says:

    Oh my god Shamus, Batman posted on your blog!

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      Not just that,but immediately after teddy roosevelt.

      1. Integer Man says:

        Maybe Teddy Roosevelt IS Batman?

        1. X2-Eliah says:

          Only if he’s learned to grow ‘sweater puppies’.

          1. Veloxyll says:

            You can get surgery or prosthetics for that easily these days

          2. Integer Man says:

            Can’t unsee that mental image.

        2. Irridium says:

          *head explodes*

  12. Daemian Lucifer says:

    Yeah,really,why wouldnt a 30 something human be able to outbiotic a 400 something asari?A paranoid one at that.Really guys,this one is easy to figure out.Liara has stasis,and she is barely 100.And stasis goes through everything.Making you perfect for a kill once it disipates.So why wouldnt morinth have thah one too?Plus,we know for certain that she has dominate(which is a great loyalty skill to have).

    And if you wonder why morinth was so good at picking up other people,let me give you an explanation:

    So you failed this quest 3 times Mumbles?Didnt really pay attention to what everyone else was talking about morinth I guess.I mean,I can see how you can miss talking with that guy about expel 10,but the reast of those are practically spoonfed to you.

    And dont beat yourself up because Josh doesnt have enough renegade points.Not picking an interrupt usually nets nothing,or a pittance,while picking it gains you lots of points.You can practically pick all the interrupts,both renegade and paragon,and still max out one(or maybe even both)scales.Instead,blame Josh for not going for +100% morality bonus(though that still wouldnt have been enough,it seems).

    1. Viktor says:

      You have 2 ultra-powerful biotics on your team already. Josh could take both of them. Heck, where she was sitting, it would only take one Charge to kill her. The only reason she’s supposedly invincible is because the game refused to actually let you fight her.

      Lets move away from Josh to a broader example. As a player, you can be an Adept. As an Adept, you are slightly more powerful than Samara. Samara, we just saw, is ~equal to Morinth. So why couldn’t you just kill Morinth?!? It’s not like the lack of a pistol actually matters. ><

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Remember vasir?How many charges did it take to break her barrier again?Yeah,wouldnt work.

        Sure,with your other squadmates charging in,yes I can see you beating her easily.You alone?No chance.

        You arent really stronger than samara.This is where lore and gameplay clash.Gameplay has your squadmates dying all the time,but lore tells you completely different things.For example,in the end,you cant conjure the swarm repellent barrier,but your other biotics can.Both jack and samara do it way better than the rest,meaning your biotiocs are pathetic.

        And for the record,I hate when lore and gameplay clash.Id like that lore to seep in the gameplay.Why cant we have jack jumping around like in the prison?Shed be a much better squadmate in that case.The only one that seems to have both lore and gameplay consistent is grunt,because he constantly charges the enemies.

        1. Sydney says:

          Keep in mind that male soldier is the canonical character. The default John Shepard at the beginning of ME1 is the actual protagonist around whom the story is written.

        2. Alexander The 1st says:

          I would totally pay for Mordin to be able to kill enemies with farming equipment. Or Thane to get into coughing fits randomly during battles. Or for Jacob to salute me during a fight.

          That would be awesome.

        3. swimon says:

          I think it’s because the game assumes that you’re a soldier. That’s why you have an assault rifle in every cut-scene and that’s why you never use biotics outside combat. It’s annoying.

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            Yeah,I understand why they do it with shepard,but why are they doing it with the rest of your crew?Grunt gets a special melee move,so why dont the rest?Thane seems to enjoy breaking necks,so why isnt that his melee for unprotected enemies?Samara could float instead of walk.It would not only make her seem more badass,but make her animation easier.They already made your squad mates have different powers,so why not make this one more step towards making them more unique?

            1. Aldowyn says:

              It would be interesting if they re-did the engine – away from the Gears of Space and towards a more dynamic combat system… Really mix up all the genres! :D

            2. Taellosse says:

              Because it wouldn’t make the animations easier. They’ve got one wire frame for all the characters and put a different model on it for each person. They might have gone so far as to make a unique wire frame for each species, but that’s as far as they went, definitely (they didn’t even really distinguish between genders for the two species that show visible sexual dimorphism). So having Samara float around outside of cut scenes would have meant creating unique animations for her, where now they just reuse their existing human/asari animations on her model.

              I agree it would have been awesome, but it wouldn’t have been easier.

              1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                I admit,I havent thought about it that way.But still,compared to making animations for each power and for krogan charge,animating samara floating around in one pose seems like a piece of cake.

                But you know,it does seem like diversity is slowly dieing in modern rpgs.In the old days you had diverse groups consisting of a floating skull,animated armour,human torch,and a walking cube,and now youre lucky if you get one dog amongst your humanoid group.

                1. Taellosse says:

                  Agreed, it probably wouldn’t be THAT expensive to do something like that. But once you do it for one party member, why not all of them? Now you’re creating unique movement animations for each squad member. Well, if you’re doing that, it seems only fair to make different ones for male and female Shepard. and if you’re doing it for Shepard, you may as well do it for all the other humans too, right?

                  I exaggerate, of course, but it is true the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Unfortunately, they drew it where they did, but that’s the way it is.

                  And yeah, you got much more diversity 10 years ago, but that’s because everything was being drawn in pixels by hand anyway, so it didn’t cost any more to make a floating skull than a guy. When you’re talking about creating 3D models of everything in the game and giving them all complex and realistic movement animations, that’s a whole different ballgame. All of which, of course, ties in to Shamus’ complaint about the ballooning cost of making games look pretty versus the static (or shrinking) budgets devoted to making them interesting to play.

        4. Kavonde says:

          I rationalized Shepard’s lack of awesome biotics away (as I did with a lot of things in this game, I realize more and more with every episode) with the reasoning that asari are naturally gifted with biotic abilities, and so learn to use them in a wider variety of ways. Humans are still new at it and (as far as I recall from the lore) all human biotics are in the military; therefore, they learn to use their powers for purely offensive purposes. This is why an Adept Shepard can absolutely obliterate a squadron of enemies in seconds with a few upgrades, Area Pull, and liberal applications of Throw and Warp, but can’t pull off the fancy biotic kung fu that Samara, Morinth, Vasir, Benezia et al can do.

          If nothing else, it made my brain twitch less.

      2. Sydney says:

        Because the whole point of being here is so Samara can kill Morinth. Kill-stealing her isn’t going to do much in the way of garnering loyalty.

    2. poiumty says:

      I’m with Daemian on this one. It just seemed a bit forced when Shamus went “just go kill her!” throughout the show. For one, Shepard wasn’t dressed in her armor, which means NO SHIELDS. Which means (lore-wise) she’d be weak against any biotic power, even Throw would splatter her all over the wall. And Morinth is not only pretty old by human standards, she’s gained the memories and power of many people before her. I trust she’d easily be able to conjure up a barrier, rendering your Charge obsolete.

      As for why Samara couldn’t be there sooner, this was pretty forced too. How long does the conversation take, 20 seconds? Besides, she shows up just in time no matter what, so i don’t see why applying a time limit to what you can do before talking to Morinth would have been a good decision, even if it did “make more sense”. Then you’d be all like “this sucks, i have to hurry or else the game will force me into its bad, stupid railroading so better get that upgrade on the wall fast because the game doesn’t want you to sit around!”.

      1. swimon says:

        Well Morinth doesn’t have armor either neither does Samara, Miranda or Jack so clearly you don’t need armor for anything other than appearance. Also yes Morinth is older than you but that doesn’t mean that she’s more powerful. Isn’t the whole idea with the asari that they live long but slowly, Morinth might be a 100 years old but by asari standards she’s a teenager (she sounds 16 at most in her dialogue). I mean nameless asari goon #31 was probably older than Morinth but she went down like a chump.

        1. Daemian Lucifer says:

          Because those are biotics,and they use barriers instead of shields.Or at least,thats how it should be,because biotics you fight use barriers instead of shields.Remember how liara escaped that assassination attempt by having her barrier up in her home?Yeah,thats probably what morinth does all the time.

          Also,the mere fact she is an asari makes her a stronger biotic than you.Jack should be the only human able to match their power.

          Plus,morinth was on the run when back when she was 40,which would be like a human 9 year old running from the law.Which means she had lots of time to practice from her very early age.And,like poiumty said,each person she consumed made her even more powerful.

        2. Bret says:

          Another thing to note.

          Shepard’s not got shields as a vanguard. She’s packing a biotic barrier. Look at the stat screen if you doubt. That’s not tied into the armor.

          She spikes higher than an L2 before being cyborged up, and now we’re talking above top of the line custom made black market gear. You get to see Shepard fight without her typical advantages in the Kasumi loyalty mission. No armor, only the rinky dink starter pistol as a weapon.

          She can still kill a couple trained mercs with her bare hands.

          Of course, all that means nothing if you just got hit with a mind whammy so you’d kill or die for Morinth like a chump.

          The important thing, though, is this is Samara’s kill. That’s the whole point.

  13. Dante says:

    Am I the only one getting the the weird problem where the video goes back to the beginning of the gameplay for this episode between 3:22 and 3:36?

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      No,Josh edited that on purpose.They mention sweater puppies,and the video skips back to what they recorded between the episodes where Shamus has mentioned it for the first time.

  14. Ateius says:

    I also tried to Grape Paladin my way through ME2, as I had done in ME1 (with a slight emphasis on Renegade). Unlike in ME1, however, maxing out the “skill” in ME2 did nothing to make up the difference and I was locked out of a good third of the paragon/renegade decisions. Including Morinth. It annoyed me a great deal, because in ME1 I was able to roleplay my choices, max out the attached skills, and have the paragon/renegade options open up to and including the final confrontation with Saren.

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      Well,in 1 you can go renegade all the way,then paragon the monkey till you fill the meter.

      In 2,my current balance is max renegade,2/3 paragon.I still have some ways to go,so Ill probably fill the paragon to the last section.Maybe I couldve maxed it if I picked all the interrupts,but I didnt want to.

    2. Chuck says:

      Hmm, maybe the Intimidate/Charm point thing was a good idea.

      Maybe it’ll be back for Me3.

      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        No it was not,and no it should not.Just because your playstyle locks you out of some choices doesnt mean the system is bad.In fact,being an expert in all is boring.Having to choose to be an expert in one thing or just average in many things is good gameplay.

        Also,the way it is in 2 is much better in game than in 1.Shooting dudes making you more charming and paragon is stupid.Having your paragon actions make you more charming is smart.If only those actions were as smart.But just because implementation is bad doesnt mean the core mechanic is bad as well.

        Personally,I think they should remove the skills points completely and make your skills grow by how much you use them.Using just the rifle?Your skill with the rifle goes through the roof,but your skill with the rest of the weapons remains pitiful.

        1. Sydney says:

          Which leads to the Quest 64 scenario where you elastic-band your controller overnight to max out Agility by running into a wall. Unless you still want to tie maximum possible skill growth to character level, which ends up with the same system as we have now but with autolevel on by fiat.

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            Again:bad implementation does not mean bad mechanic.Compare quick time events,for example:Resident evil(or almost any other game)has really,REALLY bad implementation of them.Me2 has implemented them in a good way.And everyone praised it like its something novel,when it were just the old,hated by almost everyone,qtes.Same mechanic,different implementation.

            Here,from the top of my head,a way to implement skills(even athletics)progressing by usage instead of skill points,and it being good:

            – Combat skills depend on how much hit points you take with them.Shoot 1000 hit points with your rifle,you get 10% better accuracy,or reload time,or some such.But this goes for your squad mates as well.So it actually makes sense to keep them alive and revive them when they fall,and to order them to attack enemies as much as they can.Plus it would make you either focus on two squad mates and make them as good as possible,or you could mix them very often so theyd all be balanced.Give bonuses for special feats like breaking shields/barriers/armor,killing by fire or cold,etc.These bonuses get smaller the more you use them.So for first burnt armour,your incinerate gets 1% bonus damage.For 5 more,you get another 1%.For 15 more,you get another 1%.Etc.

            – Sprinting duration increases by how much time you spend springint.For every 100 seconds you sprint,you get 1 second longer.But,this works only when there are enemies around(remember how in 1 you could sprint only when enemies where there?Like that).

            – Combat skills that dont do damage(like cloak,freeze,lift),progress by successful usage.If you freeze someone,you get a bonuse.But if you get blocked by their protection,you get nothing.Works only once per enemy.Cloak would increase duration if you have it last till its end,or increase your damage while cloaked if you attack an enemy while cloaked.Works only x times per battle.

            And,of course,scaling difficulty is required for this to work properly.Getting from bad to average at something should be easy,but getting from good to excellent should be hard.However,lots of playtesting and tweaking is required for this to work well,so I doubt this would happen.

            1. Sydney says:

              Ammo powers? Tactical Cloak? Passives? Geth Shield Boost? Adrenaline Rush?

              1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                Like I said,its from the top of my head.You want more details?Fine:

                – Ammo powers:The more damage you do with them,the better they are.Lets say your rifle does 100 damage.You apply disruptor ammo,and get 20% bonus,40$ against shields.If you shoot an unshielded or armoured opponent,you get 100 points in rifles and 20 in your ammo power.If you shoot a shielded opponent,you get 100 points in rifles,and 40 in ammo power.When ammo power reaches 100 points,it becomes 25/50.At certain intervals,you get other bonuses,like weapon overheating and synthetic overload.You get squad ammo if you use ano ammo power in 500 battles,for example.

                – Tactical cloak Ive given an example.

                – Passives would grow over time.If you deal damage mostly by weapons,your weapon damage increases.If you use mostly damaging powers,your powers damage increases.If you use mostly non damaging powers,your powers cooldowns and durations increase.If you receive only small health damage,you gain health bonus.If you use interrupts and morality options often,you gain bonus to your morality score.

                – Geth shield boost:the more you sustain it in battles,the more points it gives.For example,if you get shot,but your shields dont break,you gain 1% more points.If your shields break,you get nothing.The more points the boost gives you,the more shoots you need to absorb before next upgrade.

                – Adrenaline rush:the more damage you deal while it lasts,the more damage bonus it grants.The more damage to your health you take while it lasts,the more it reduces damage you take to your health.If you kill while it lasts,its cooldown dereases and/or its duration increase.

                If you really want,I can even go through all the powers in me2 and give you numbers for each and every one of them and how they could work without skill points.

                1. Sydney says:

                  And it would end up overcomplicated, grind-oriented, hard to play, hard to balance, hard to implement, hard to learn, and no more realistic than a skill-point system.

                  “Could be done” and “should be done” aren’t identical.

                2. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Um,why would it end up being overcomplicated and hard to play and learn?More doesnt always mean more complicated and harder to learn.Religions in civiv were more,a whole new level of gameplay added to the existing mechanic,and it was quite easy to learn.Again,implementation and mechanic are two different things.

                  Grind oriented?More than it already is?No.

                  Hard to implement and balance?Yes.But thats not a bad thing.Starcraft was hard to implement and balance,but if blizzard said “fuck it,well do another 2 same race clone rts like everyone else”,we wouldnt have one of the best games ever.

                  Yes yes,could and should are not the same.But hard and not fun are also not the same.

                3. swimon says:

                  I think this is an interesting idea. It worked really well for Morrowind IMO but I’m curious if it would work in a much more linear game like ME2. Since there is a limited amount of enemies in ME2 there is a limited amount of possible skill progression. This might encourage people to play the same way the whole game instead of trying different ways to play which could become a bit stale. See in Morrowind you could play as a sneaking enchanting spear mage if you wanted to, it just meant you had to give it some time. In ME2 this would mean you were bad at everything. Still, it could work and it’s an interesting mechanic.

                  That said “If you receive only small health damage,you gain health bonus” is a terrible idea. This would mean that the game would get easier for people who were already doing well without helping the ones that are struggling (might even make it harder if your difficulty curve expects some health bonuses). Reversing it is better IMO but then a good tactic would be to get nearly killed in every fight so you’ll get more health and that leads to lot of problems (immersion breaks as you’re standing there letting the enemy shoot you if nothing else) so I don’t think that’s a very good idea either.

                4. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  That goes into meta gaming,and no matter what system you make,people will always meta game it.Maybe not on their first go,but on their subsequent plays.But like I said,it requires work,and lots of playtesting.

                  As for having less health than shield damage awarding better players,arent the games already doing that?The better you are in the beginning,the easier it is for you later.Every game that has progression is like that.And many games have found a way around it:Make the main game beatable on the default setting,and have some harder optional sections unlocked the stronger you become.This way,everyone can go through the main game,but if you want to experience everything it has to offer,you need to improve your play.Second ending to warrior within comes to mind.

                  As for linearity of the game,well it already is made the way you are going to end with a few specialist classes.Jack of all trade isnt really that good later on.And sure,you can respec your shepard,but youll still end up with a specialized character.And personally,Id rather have my sniper increase constantly than rush it and have it on the same level for the whole game.

              2. Daemian Lucifer says:


                That goes into meta gaming,and no matter what system you make,people will always meta game it.Maybe not on their first go,but on their subsequent plays.But like I said,it requires work,and lots of playtesting.

                As for having less health than shield damage awarding better players,arent the games already doing that?The better you are in the beginning,the easier it is for you later.Every game that has progression is like that.And many games have found a way around it:Make the main game beatable on the default setting,and have some harder optional sections unlocked the stronger you become.This way,everyone can go through the main game,but if you want to experience everything it has to offer,you need to improve your play.Second ending to warrior within comes to mind.

                As for linearity of the game,well it already is made the way you are going to end with a few specialist classes.Jack of all trade isnt really that good later on.And sure,you can respec your shepard,but youll still end up with a specialized character.And personally,Id rather have my sniper increase constantly than rush it and have it on the same level for the whole game.

                EDIT:Comment deleted as a spam?Well,I am responding to myself,but thats just because we reached the maximum of the in quotes…

            2. Bubble181 says:

              Setting aside that it can be done – it’d still almost certainly push you to favouring two specific teammates over everybody else. It’s a problem almost all of this type of games have anyway, but this system would make it worse.
              And no, having the team members who stay behind auto-level along with you (à  la KotOR) isn’t a good solution, either :-P

              Mind you, I don’t think either system is great or perfect. Obviously flawed systems (such as Oblivion, where you could indeed become a 100% skilled athlete by walking against a wall for half an hour) are one thing – decent but not great systems are another. A perfect system more than likely doesn’t exist, especially given that different people want a different balance of realism vs gameplay and character building vs minmaxing etc etc.

              1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                Well it already pushes you to pick miranda whenever you ramp up the difficulty,so yeah.You could always introduce a training room on your ship for non active squadies to train.

                Yes,it needs work,but it is a decent system in its core.I liked when they did this in morowind,and if they polished it and lost the stupid autoleveling,it would truly shine.

                1. Ateius says:

                  Wow, what a monster of a derail I’ve created by complaining about ME2’s dialogue system.

                  Daemian: What’s wrong, exactly, with wanting to be an expert in conversational skills? If I want the option to push my character direction towards sly manipulation, and am willing to sacrifice combat viability for that (as was the case in ME1), how is that wanting to be an “expert in all”? Am I not allowed to develop my character in the way I choose?

                2. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Nothing is wrong with choosing conversational skills over combat ones.Whats wrong,however,is that you can increase your conversational skills by killing a bunch of dudes.In 2,combat and conversational skills are separate,and while it still doesnt make sense that by collecting minerals and repairing broken equipment you get to be better at shooting,it makes sense that you become more of a charmer/bully by talking and acting in more charming/intimidating ways*.

                  So,because combat and conversational options are developed in different ways,you cant sacrifice one in order to boost the other.But you still have to make sacrifices because content is limited.And thats what I meant by “expert in all”.

                  *At least thats the theory.The practice,like Ive said during one of the previous episodes,is that you become more of a charmer/bully by acting like an idiot.Not all the time,but at noticeable points(like when you talk to cerberus).

                3. Ateius says:

                  And while that’s a fine idea in theory, in practice the system in ME2 turns it from a roleplaying choice (“This is what my character would do/say – or as close to it as possible – in the given situation”) into a metagamed mathematical equation (“I need to pick Space Saint in this conversation so I have enough Saint Power to pick Space Saint in the next conversation”).

                  Deriving speech abilities from skillpoints is an abstract system that, no, doesn’t make a lot of logical sense in context. However, the benefit is that the player is free to specialize their character in the way they like without being forced into a single conversational path throughout the game.

                4. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Umm,no.You wanting to have all the options unlocked is what turns it into a metagamed mathematical equation.No one forces you to pick the morality options in conversations.Thats why they have other options available to you as well.You are free to say what you feel your character would say at that moment.You think that in a tabletop rpg a gm would let you casually charm a guy who youve been ignoring for the rest of the game just because he never had anything important to say until now?

                  And how is having skill points that you can distribute to your conversational skills instead of your combat ones just so youd end up being able to have all the dialogue options available not metagaming?

              2. Ateius says:

                But if I say what I want my character to say, then an hour later in the game, I can’t say what I want my character to say, because I haven’t metagamed and prioritized picking Space Saint or Space Jerk, leaving me without enough Saint Power or Jerk Power to choose the appropriate options later.

                I’m glad you brought up tabletop RPGs, because you know what those have? Skill points. I can choose (and have in the past) to develop a character with expert conversational skills, a silver tongue able to persuade, lie, and threaten those I meet. The tradeoff, of course, is that I’m less capable in other skills, but it’s one I choose to make. What I don’t have to deal with is my decision to be nice to NPC A meaning I’m not allowed to be mean to NPC B.

                As to metagaming, it seems I’m not being clear. When I say ME2’s alignment system makes dialogue choices metagame choices, I’m referring to how it turns them from roleplaying choices into mechanical choices. In ME1 (and tabletop RPGs) the mechanics choice takes place when you’re working with your skills. In ME2, the mechanics choice gets moved into your dialogue choice, and it’s no longer a matter of “What do I want my response to be in this situation?” but rather “Which response gives me the most Space Jerk points so I can be a Space Jerk to the next guy?” Rather than making your decision within the gameworld, you’re making it from an outside perspective, in a situation where you should be able to make the decision from inside.

                1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Not all the rpgs have skill points,and even in those that do,the gm can restrict you to get only skill points in those areas that you can adequately explain in your backstory,or that youve used during the session.

                  In 1 you also have to unlock intimidate/charm before you can buy them,so that can aslo be viewed as meta gaming.Just because your playstyle allowed you to unlock this easily,doesnt mean others werent frustrated by this.

                  You can metagame any game you want.That doesnt make the core system of the game automatically bad.Nor does it make it good.

                  You see it as a problem that you cant say what you want your character to say because you didnt act in a certain way.But consider it like this:A criple asks you for something,and you act like you want,so you shove him away.He spreads bad word about you,and later,when you want to ask someone else for help,he refuses.There,your action preventing you from playing how you want and forcing you to search another path.How is that bad and automatically metagamey?

                2. Ateius says:

                  If I ever have the bad luck to meet a GM who is such a tyrant that he restricts how I assign my skillpoints (especially when most games already restrict skills by class and other factors) I certainly wouldn’t keep playing under him.

                  And yes, in ME1 you still had to do some Paragon/Renegade stuff in order to get the skillpoints. It wasn’t ideal to be sure. But, you could max out the skillpoints without maxing out the associated alignment, allowing for greater freedom of play.

                  Your example there does not hold up. It would if I went immediately from the cripple to a guy across the street, but in ME2, I’m going from a poor cripple on Omega to a secret research base on the other side of the galaxy. Surely the mad scientist who has been living in seclusion working on his scheme to kill the people of Generica-5 hasn’t heard about that one time I was mean to a cripple on Omega last week, so why can’t I try and charm him?

                  None of this is changing the fact that in ME2 I have to keep in mind my Karma-o-Meter constantly during conversation. If I don’t carefully stick to Space Jerk or Space Saint I get punished later, as is aptly demonstrated in this very video. This isn’t a system that you can metagame, it’s one that you must metagame, or else be locked out of options in the latter half of the game.

                3. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  You may think it tyrannical,but I did quite a few games where I myself attributed skill points to the players based on how they composed their backstories and what actions they took,and those ended up being far more loose than any other system Ive ever played.Not to mention that instead of having my players crunching numbers at the end of a session,they were more concerned with their characters going to a gym,swimming in pools,even having dancing lessons.In fact,the only one suffering from this was me.

                  Oh yes,having to fill your morality scales to just 75% instead of 100% is much less metagamey.

                  Word of mouth is only one of the ways paragon/renegade options show themselves in.Someone mentioned during one of the previous episodes that if you were expecting from mister burns to charm someone,hed fail miserably.See,like everything else,charming/intimidating someone is a skill that needs for to be perfected.Your body language,your tone of voice,all of those lend weight to your words.Anyone can point a gun and threaten to shoot you if you dont obey.But who would you think is more intimidating,the guy who is visibly shaking,with wide spread eyes,or someone with a stern look standing in a military pose without a single muscle twitching?

                  No,you dont have to metagame it at all.You can disregard the system completely and still win.You wont max out your loot,so what?No one forces you to.You still can get the good ending(everyone lives)without a single paragon/renegade point.If the main quest forces you to have some skills in order to win,thats bad core mechanic.If a side quest or optional loot becomes unavailable because you dont have the correct skill,thats not bad core mechanic.Thats why it is a side quest,an optional thing that you can do if you want,but you can also skip it without repercussions.You dont get punished for not having a certain skill,you get rewarded for having a certain skill.There is a huge difference between the two.

                  1. Shamus says:

                    For me the frustration comes in when I disagree with the designers over the meaning of “paragon” and “renegade”. I play what I believe to be consistently, and the game randomly punishes me with the wrong kind of points. (Which makes the player wonder if going the other way would have awarded the desired points.) This is exacerbated by the fact that BioWare can’t even seem to keep their meaning straight themselves.

                    Instead of choosing my own path through the game, I’m being graded on how well I follow someone else’s path.

                4. Ateius says:

                  Yes, it is less metagamey, because you don’t have to restrict yourself to choosing just one set of options. It’s entirely possible to – like I did – play through the game choosing responses based on roleplaying and end up with enough alignment points to max out the skills.

                  And of course expressing charm or projecting an intimidating presence is a skill. That’s why, you know, I want it to be a skill. You don’t learn how to do something just by doing it, there’s also study and research. Is Shepard not allowed to read “How to Win Friends and Influence People” to up her Charm a bit?

                  If you want it to be rated on word-of-mouth then everyone should just flee in terror whenever Shepard shows her face because she kills about fifty people a day!

                  And yes, I do have to metagame. Call it a punishment or call it a reward, either way, I, the player, have to think about the game mechanics in advance, consider whether I want to be able to use those mechanics later on, and then base an in-character decision not on what my character thinks, but on whether or not I want to be rewarded later for having a high Saint Meter. That is metagaming. Heck, that could suffice as a definition for metagaming. The only way to engage with the system, the only way to be ‘rewarded’, is to metagame. If you do not metagame in this way, you will not get your ‘rewards’ later.

                  Also, what Shamus said.

                5. Daemian Lucifer says:


                  With that,I agree.There are so many instances in the game where they are switched completely,where they have nothing to do with what they should represent.*sigh*


                  I havent restricted myself to just one option,yet I have 100% renegade and 60% paragon,and I didnt even finish the game yet.

                  And it is a skill.Just because it lacks skill points,doesnt make it less of a skill.

                  And you dont have to metagame at all.On my first playthrough,I didnt metagame at all,yet I ended up with 100% renegade,40% paragon.And I missed on some of the missions I am doing this time.I didnt even have the fully upgraded equipment.

                  And no,punishment and reward are not the same thing.

                6. Ateius says:

                  I didn’t say punishments and rewards are the same thing, I said that whichever term you use makes no difference to what I’m talking about.

                  I’m very interested to know how you got 100/40 without doing a number of the sidequests. I did absolutely everything I could find (not including DLC) and ended up with about 60/30.

                  Maybe it’s because of the occasionally railroad-y dialogue. I do remember more than once picking the “neutral” option because I wanted to choose, for example, Paragon, but all that they gave me was Neutral and Renegade (which is another, separate complaint).

                7. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  But in this case its not the same,because its optional content you are not allowed to have without enough morality points.You arent punished,you just arent rewarded.

                  Im a completeionist,so I usually do everything I see.But I think I missed a quest.I didnt do dlcs,and I didnt start with a 60 level character like this time.

                  Yeah,the dialogue is quite bad in the main quest.Even the middle option doesnt help at times.

                8. Ateius says:

                  Nah, it doesn’t make a difference. You can say I’m being “punished” for choosing incorrectly, or “rewarded” for picking right; that’s just semantics. It doesn’t change the fact that from where I’m sitting, the process by which to get to that point is the same – gaming the system and favouring one style of response over the other simply to unlock more Saint/Jerk points.

                  I’m also a completionist, and as I said, did everything I could find. I missed some of the harder interrupts (QTEs are not my forte, and sometimes I wanted to hear them keep talking i.e. Mordin); do they make up a huge percentage of the points?

                  Let’s just agree that the less said about the main plot (and associated dialogue) the better. “Rogue Elements” my arse.

                9. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  But it does make a difference.When you have the main part of the game being locked from you because you lack certain skill,thats punishment.When you have the optional part of the game unlocked when you reach certain skill,thats reward.Take for example one of the early platformers,like mario:If you dont do jumps correctly,you die and have to replay that level(or restart the game),and are thus not allowed to see the rest of the game,thats punishment.If you find a secret area,you get some coins to pick up,and thats a reward.You have to have some skill and special knowledge to find this special area,but you can do the whole game without it.

                  Same goes here:Morality prevents you only from getting the optional content,it doesnt prevent you from finishing the game.Yes,it would sometimes make the game easier for you,but you can finish the game without it.Thats why it is not punishment,and doesnt automatically lead to metagaming.

                  As for the interrupts,well I didnt do any paragon ones on my first playthrough,I am doing some now.The do seem to give some nice bonuses,like +10.

  15. eaglewingz says:

    Josh : “I never actually looked up”.

    Dammit, Josh!
    Didn’t the Giant Robot Incident from FO3 teach you ANYTHING?

    1. Josh says:

      Hey, don’t blame me if the level designers suck at getting people to look at the interesting stuff.

      1. Kavonde says:

        Yeah, I seriously never looked up in that part of Omega either. I just assumed it was more boring, gray ceiling. I actually gasped in surprise when you looked up and there were signs and open sky and stuff.

        1. Aldowyn says:

          Omega is a space station. There isn’t supposed to be any “open sky”.

      2. Irridium says:

        I wouldn’t say its their fault. After all, Valve usually comments on how hard it is to get people to look up in games.

  16. Stephen says:

    Weren’t you guys going to try to make everyone die at the end?

    1. Mathias says:

      They still need to complete the mission, though. And there are probably some people they want to preserve (Mordin, for instance). I can’t wait to see Miranda and Jacob die horribly, though. That’s for trying to desperately cover up the rails throughout the entire story.

      1. Aldowyn says:

        I wanted to see them do Miranda’s loyalty mission – curious how they see her in it. They can always kill her by making her the biotic specialist.

        1. Moriarty says:

          Chosing Miranda to provide the barrier actually works. She’s got plot armor until the fight at the end, so she can suddenly change her loyalties and side against the illusive man without showing any signs of disagreement with him prior.

          The only way to kill her off is to bring her to the endboss-fight without her loyalty mission, so she can die in the cutscene at the end.

        2. Taellosse says:

          Moriarty’s right–I had her as the biotic specialist in my first playthrough and she lives–it’s the other party member you’ve got with you that’s toasted when her shield fails (it was Legion for me).

        3. Kavonde says:

          I’m in favor of them doing Miranda’s loyalty mission for four reasons:

          1) So you can point out how incredibly screwed up the timeline is; the NPCs keep saying that Miranda snuck her sister out when she was just “a baby” or “a little girl.” They also talk about how she’s been raised by a foster family who loves her and that she doesn’t remember her dad at all. But, according to Miranda, her sister was something like eight or ten years old when she took her, which just…I mean…agh. I need to go slam my head into the wall for a minute, BRB.

          2) So you can, at the end, choose not to encourage Miranda to meet her sister, screwing with her head just a little bit more.

          3) So you can get her black catsuit outfit, which, while still skin tight, manages to be a little less…obvious than her white one.

          4) Most importantly, so you can talk to the half-krogan asari bartender. She is my favorite character in the entire game, bar none.

          1. Daemian Lucifer says:

            I dont think the timeline is wrong there.Theres some 15 or so years difference between miranda and oriana.

            As for the krogan-asari matriarch,you can talk to her whenever you want.Its just that Josh never went into the bar:(Plus,theres konrad in that bar.And the bachelor party.

            1. Kavonde says:

              Yeah, she’s 17 at the time of the mission. But Miranda had only taken her about eight years before. At that age she would have certainly been old enough to remember Miranda, her father, and everything that transpired. However, a big deal is made of the fact that Oriana doesn’t remember her biological family and that Miranda’s a terrible person for trying to take her from the “only family she’s ever known.” These things do not mesh.

              I figure they changed because they didn’t want Miranda to be over 30. See my mock dialogue below.

              1. Sydney says:

                And Grunt is physically a teenager despite being how many days old?

                Mass Effect ages get wonky when test tubes and cloning get involved. I’m willing to bet Oriana’s biological age and her temporal age don’t match.

                1. Aldowyn says:

                  You dig Grunt out of a giant test tube. Not to mention he’s a Krogan, who have crazy long lives (almost asari length – assuming they don’t get killed). Miranda’s situation is entirely different.

          2. Kavonde says:

            For the record (and since I can’t edit my post to include this), I’m pretty sure I know why they changed Miranda’s sister’s age at seemingly the last minute. For the ages to line up right, Miranda would have to be about eight years older, putting her in her early to mid 30’s. Some marketing guy saw that and the conversation probably went like this:

            Marketing Guy: “Heyyy, buddy, guy, hey, you know, we’re kind of aiming for a 15-25 demographic here, you know, and guys that age don’t dig older women.”

            ME2 Writer: “But it’s Yvonne Strahovski. In a catsuit.”

            Marketing Guy: “Yeah, I hear you, I hear you, but why don’t you go ahead and make her a little younger. Say, 25?”

            ME2 Writer: “But that’s going to totally screw up the timeline for her story with her sister and everything.”

            Marketing Guy: “Yyyyeah, okay, so, why don’t you just go ahead and make her 25 years old, alright? Good talk, buddy.”

            ME2 Writer: “…I’m burning this fucking building down when I quit. Seriously.”

            1. Daemian Lucifer says:

              Umm,miranda is 35.She was born in 2150,and the year me2 takes place in is 2185.

              1. Kavonde says:

                Then there’s no reason the timeline shouldn’t have worked out just fine, making the whole thing even dumber.

                1. Daemian Lucifer says:

                  Please remind me where she says it was 8 years ago?I just did that mission a couple of days ago,and I dont remember anyone saying that.Nor can I find that referenced in the mass effect wiki.

    2. Fnord says:

      You can kill a number of loyal people by sending them on the wrong job, if that floats your boat. I think it’s actually possible to kill everyone even if you do all the loyalty missions, provided you intentionally screw-up where possible and don’t mediate conflicts.

    3. X2-Eliah says:

      Not everyone, they will just kill off Jacob, Miranda and perhaps someone else.

      1. Kavonde says:

        There’s also the whole Last Stand scene. If you leave your most combat-proficient people like Grunt, Garrus, and Jacob to hold the line and take weaker members like Tali and Mordin into the fight, everyone will pull through. However, taking Grunt alone will virtually guarantee Mordin or Tali’s death, and bringing along one of the other top-tier fighters will cause even more damage.

        The DLC characters pretty much mitigate this, of course. Zaeed is considered roughly on par with Grunt, and let’s face it, you’re probably not going to bring him anywhere but his loyalty mission.

    4. Aldowyn says:

      *edit* WTH? This isn’t where I put this… reposting in the right place.

  17. X2-Eliah says:

    Well, fired implies I get paid for this in anything except a bloody Echo Bazaar addiction and Livestream commercials about how to feed the children I don't have.

    Well, can’t you make an arrangement with Rutskarn in this matter? I mean, he practically could be like a singular children unit for you, no?

    1. Desgardes says:

      Which is a must more tasteful than the alternate, Mary Kay Letourneau arrangement.

  18. Daemian Lucifer says:

    Comment deleted as spam?Well I did answer to my own post,but thats because we have reached the maximum depth.Plus it never happened before.


    1. Shamus says:

      I have no idea why the spam filter ate those. Strange.


      1. Daemian Lucifer says:

        Well you could have deleted the second one.It was just my feeble attempt to work around the filter.

  19. SpammyV says:

    So, not like this comments thread needs to be longer, but this would just be about at the limit of being recent.

    So I was thinking from the last Aria conversation that it would be cool if Aria was a romance option. Seemed to be on that one interaction level that I associate with potential love interests, and dangit it’s not Mass Effect if you can’t bang a blue chick.

    And I know that people make fun of dating simulators, but it’d be different, at least. In my head it would go that Aria invites you to her booth/place for drinks if you impress her at that first meeting when you go to pick up Mordin, and unlike most RPG romances it’s more of a “Get to know you” and not “I fix your problems” sort of thing. You to pick the tone of how you tell her about the things that have happened(And get to bitch about Tim) and have to fill Aria in on what’s been happening since you last talked.

    Call me stupid but I think it’d be interesting.

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      “and dangit it's not Mass Effect if you can't bang a blue chick.”

      You can bang liara with the dlc.

      This reminded me though:Whats with the dancing in 2?In 1 when you danced,you moved,you twisted a bit,you didnt just stand there like a dork who urgently needs to pee.

      1. acronix says:

        Maybe when Cerberus ressurrected Shepard they forgot to fix her bladder properly.

  20. Maldeus says:

    How can you be paid in an Echo Bazaar addiction? It’s a free game. Do they send you Fate, or have they concocted an elaborate scheme whereby they’ve convinced you that they somehow have the power to have you banned from the game if you ever leave your pimp the show?

  21. Taellosse says:

    What the hell is up with Samara’s eyes in the conversation just before you go into Afterlife? Her right eye kept twitching half-closed. She looked like she was suffering some kind of neurological disorder. I don’t remember her doing that in my games. Weird.

    1. Daemian Lucifer says:

      Asari eyes are usually weird.

      1. X2-Eliah says:

        Yeah. I’m constantly annoyed by that >.>

  22. Zaxares says:

    I’m sure it’s been mentioned a bazillion times already, but there’s a video glitch around the 3:35 mark where the footage cuts back to Nef’s mother’s apartment.

    Also, I have never heard the euphemism “sweater puppies” before either. It has now been saved to my vocabulary databanks. XD

    @Beating this quest: Getting Morinth to invite you back to her apartment is fairly simple. Firstly, you need to catch her attention. This is done by ‘beating’ at least 3 incidents in the nightclub, where beating means completing in a Paragon or Renegade fashion. For example, the krogan at the bar? To beat him, you must use the Renegade option to intimidate him. Just talking to him or being polite does not count as ‘beating’ him. That’s one ‘incident’. Another incident is showing off your dance moves to the asari on the dance floor using a Paragon option. Once you’ve successfully completed three incidents, Morinth will come and talk to you.

    Now, you need to increase Morinth’s interest beyond a certain threshold. Talking to Morinth about drugs, music, art and what excites her and picking the correct options (Hallex, Expel 10, the elcor artist Forta etc.) all increase her interest. Picking the wrong option causes her interest to drop, but in most cases, you can use a Paragon or Renegade option to ‘win the argument’ and gain a point.

    In most of my playthroughs, I still had to beat one Paragon/Renegade argument after giving the correct answer all 6 times to get Morinth to leave with you. Otherwise, once you’ve exhausted all the dialogue options, Morinth will still invite you back to her apartment if your score is high enough, but if it’s too low, she’ll leave, and you’ll fail the loyalty mission.

    I’m unsure if talking to Morinth about family or justicars puts her on the alert and causes her to flee immediately, but I’ve heard that’s possible, so avoid picking those conversation options.

    @Final Paragon/Renegade option with Morinth: Actually, if your Paragon or Renegade score is high enough, you can pick either of the two options, which shows that you’re strong-willed enough to resist Morinth’s influence. If you did not have a high enough score to pick either option, then you will automatically side with Samara in the conflict.

    Incidentally, Morinth and her bonus power Dominate make absolutely no sense in the ME Universe. The asari do NOT have mind controlling powers; they are natural biotics, which means all they can do is increase or decrease the mass of objects. That does NOT mean they can control the minds of others.

    1. ehlijen says:

      Face it, Asari as your 08/15 ancient psychic race. And that means they can mind control stuff.

      But maybe it’s not mind control, but physical force exerted on your arms?

    2. Aldowyn says:

      dude, they mate by meshing their nervous systems. Ardat-Yakshi just take it a bit further and are able to essentially overwhelm others’ nervous systems with their own, thus “mind controlling them”.


    3. Daemian Lucifer says:

      Its not a glitch,its editing on purpose.That part in the apartment is what they recorded between the episodes.

      Asari can already meld minds together,share thoughts,have sex that way.So how does it not make sense in game to have an asari be able to indoctrinate someone for a brief period of time?

      And what about neural shock and reave?Those are also biotic powers that affect the nervous system,one of which is used by non asari.

      1. Zaxares says:

        Huh… It didn’t seem that way to me when I watched through it, but anyway, it wasn’t a HUGE deal. :)

        The mind melding that asari do as part of their mating is them attuning their own nervous system to that of their partner’s. (They can do this because, as natural biotics, they’ve had decades of experience of being able to precisely control their own electrical signals in their brain, so it’s a fairly simple, if still exhausting, method of being able to almost become a single organism during the mating.) It still requires them to have physical contact with their partner, since if they could actually do so at a distancce, you’d be able to see the connection manifest in the air as electrical discharges. No such phenomena can be seen in ME2 when using the Dominate (or Reave) powers.

        That said, there is one other race in the MEVerse which has been shown to have some kind of psychic or otherwise unknown ability; the rachni. This is most evident in ME1 where the Rachni Queen takes control of a near-dead asari commando. I’ll grant that it may be possible that the asari DO have some level of psychic ability as well, an ability that they hide from the galaxy at large.

        Incidentally, if this were true, that DOES lend weight to the theory that all asari are subtly mind-controlling everyone they meet to see them as ‘attractive’, which explains why all the sentient races tend to see asari as ‘looking just like us’!

        Neural Shock is NOT a biotic ability, incidentally. The game classes it as a ‘Tech ability’, and the batarian patient in his recruitment mission says that Mordin ‘stunned the Blue Suns with some kind of toxin’, which suggests that his Neural Shock ability is some kind of chemical nerve gas or some sort of electrical device which stuns and incapacitates its targets.

        Come to think of it, Reave is even MORE illogical than Dominate. How can you actually gain health from somebody else through the air?

  23. mad_wolf says:

    echo bazaar is awesome, i play it too.
    still learning that re-occurring dreams generally just suck.

  24. Kale says:

    Several days late, but this was too perfect not to share. http://badspot.us/img/Mass-Effect-2-Vanguard-of-Seduction.html

  25. superglucose says:

    The option was really dumb. I was playing a major Paragon and she had just tried to kill me and then was all, “No, kill my mother and let me work with you!”

    Needless to say, my expression was one of o.O???

  26. Slothful says:

    I was really surprised when I got the choice to recruit Morinth in this mission, since it wasn't foreshadowed at all. I actually expected that you would end up with the option of just convincing Samara not to kill Morinth, since that's how it went in about HALF of the loyalty missions.

    I chose to let Samara live on the basis that she is the homicidal psychopath that wouldn't try to sex me up and kill me with her boobs.

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