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DM of the Rings LXXXI:
Let’s Get Rolling
Previous in DM of the Rings: DM of the Rings LXXX: Strange Bedfellows | Next in DM of the Rings: DM of the Rings LXXXII: Have Fireball, Will Travel |
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Sometimes initiative is a little odd.
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Previous in DM of the Rings: DM of the Rings LXXX: Strange Bedfellows | Next in DM of the Rings: DM of the Rings LXXXII: Have Fireball, Will Travel |
127. There are now n+1 comments, where n is a big-ish sort of number.
Blast it. “Inititive” In panel 1.
Dang dang. I’ll fix it when time allows.
heh, nearly 3 years :)
Nice to see I’m not alone.
Right here with you guys XD
Me too! (my third time reading through this)
This time warp must mean something… Spot check!!
Just now reading them for the first time, they’re hilarious. And I’m incredibly surprised that there’s a comment that me commenting on ISN’T a SUPER-necro. Like, years afterward. Actually, that’d be kind of funny…
Believe me, I was holding back on commenting for years after this. Brave lads that do that deserve a medal for restarting convos.
I’m also a comment zombie reading through this for the 1st time. Wonderful stuff!
I am mightily amused by this little convergence. Hello, Hoolygan!
(If you like this, you should also try Darths & Droids. It is also very good.)
Fourth time reading through this for me, I just cannot get enough XD This entire line is genius.
crazy Reply feed is trippy if you add lag-drag
“Melee”, not “meele” in panel 2.
Great comic once again, though. :-)
I feel that way all the time :(
Dearest sir, there is a spelling error in your webcomic. This has caused me immesurable discomfort, and prevented me from freely enjoying your website’s content.
I shall, of course, be suing you. My lawyers shall contact you shortly.
Yours with warmest regards,
Rolld20.
Have a nice day. ;)
Wow. So current count is 5 typos in the last two comics. I really need a comic maker with a spell checker.
Or maybe I should take a couple of ranks in literacy.
A fair DM rolls seperate initiative for all 10,000 orcs, right?
Of course you know, this means war!
Ok, pithy and not at all funny, but someone had to say it. I love those moments in games where you finally, after years of rolling poorly, get to go first, only to find out there’s absolutely nothing you can do.
I usually make something up along the lines of “I ready my weapons” or “I check my shoelaces”, or when feeling particularly munchin-esque, “I try to inspire a +1 modifier in the archers by bellowing a war-cry”.
Yeah…good times…
I’d be happy to proofread your comics before you release them to the public! (The earlier I can see them, the better!)
BTW, great shot of Gimli asking for a lift on the MP Moratorium.
*snickers* The idea of GIMLI going crowd-surfing just made me laugh out loud in a library. If I get kicked out, I’m blaming you. XD
yeah he rolls initiative for 10,000 orcs 300 men, the king, and the some 300 elven arches that showed up.
I play a socerer, so winning initiative is always good, its never any fun when what you fight is in the air or far away and all you have is melee weapons.
As for the spelling, i don’t mind the errors, just double check before you post. I’ve only caught one grammatical error on all of OOTS,
don’t start slipping on us now shamus
“OK, 1000 orcs fire their arrows at you, Gimli…your AC is 19, and their attack adjustment is +3…ok (roll roll roll roll roll roll roll), that’s 203 arrow hits… (roll roll roll roll roll)…ok, you take 721 hit points of damage. Actions for next round?”
This happens to me every time, even in my own game. I win initiative over and over until I’m actually able to attack somebody, then I drop to the bottom of the list.
“Hurry up, then stand and wait”. Ah,life in the military!
Well, if you have initiative first, can’t you choose to hold onto it and wait for other people to go, and then jump in and exert the right to take your action at any time? That’s a pretty useful bonus even if you don’t get first action in the battle.
Great comic…that’s happened to me plenty of times.
Always carry a ranged weapon.
superfluousk Says:”Well, if you have initiative first, can’t you choose to hold onto it and wait for other people to go, and then jump in and exert the right to take your action at any time? That’s a pretty useful bonus even if you don’t get first action in the battle.”
Yeah like ready his battle axe to throw at any unusual looking orc charging with any device out of a Spy Vs. Spy comic.
how true.
I’ve had a player (half-orc Barb who would always role last in Inititive roles unless he couldn’t do anything.
xargon Says:
A fair DM rolls seperate initiative for all 10,000 orcs, right?
Although rolling 10,000 initiatives sounds daunting, after rolling 10,000 sets of stats, allocating them, leveling-up 10,000 orcs, allocating skills and feats and equiping them out it is a trivial task, almost enjoyable.
The bad part is the endless arguing over how initiative ties are resolved with players who can’t remember a rule for two consecutive rolls and those who dumped their DEX without working out all the ramifications, all done over the endless cries of the dimwit yelling “I Cleave!” every three seconds.
You’d need a big initiative whiteboard and a bunch of pens though. Best to choose the non-solvent-based kind too, lest the cast pass out during the pre-battle sums.
Steve.
Oh man, I so hated when I was a melee fighter standing behind everyone and won Initiative. Had to use my round to get in front. -_-
A corollary on Murphy’s law: The chances of rolling a natural 20 is inversely proportional to the importance of the outcome of the roll.
He could toss himself!
-The Gneech
[quote] George Says:
March 28th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
yeah he rolls initiative for 10,000 orcs 300 men, the king, and the some 300 elven arches that showed up.
I play a socerer, so winning initiative is always good, its never any fun when what you fight is in the air or far away and all you have is melee weapons.
As for the spelling, i don’t mind the errors, just double check before you post. I’ve only caught one grammatical error on all of OOTS,
don’t start slipping on us now shamus
[/quote]
What the hell is a socerer?
Hahah! Judging someones spelling and grammar, and then having that in your text! Where the hell is most of your punctuation!
Hardeharhar!
Aside from the jokes, would the best way to play this be a mass battle system? Or would it be “there is combat all around you, and your party faces 2d6 orcs”?
So what you do, then, is ready to attack any baddie that comes within melee range. You still go before your enemy, your initiative is adjusted to come just before said enemy for future rounds, and you’re a happy dwarf. :)
I seem to remember that old, Rohanian archer won initiative.
Actually, I’ll watch that part of the film now w/ a smile thinking that all the thousands were waiting for the initiative roll & he just didn’t & let fly! “Bad form, what?” calls out the Uruk Hai captain.
That part (among man others, though I do still love the films) of Two Towers made me shake my head. Why would the orcs stop in bow-shot range before charging? And why wouldn’t the rest of the defenders take adavantage & shoot a bunch more?
An interesting scenario:
Our group of 4 level 13s walk into a courtyard. There are 30 soldiers in front of us with swords and shields, and 20 on the walls with bows and arrows.
Initiative is rolled and the team’s Warforged Monk goes first. It feels a bit silly to charge in, but he goes “whatever” and does it. He charges right into the first line of troups, getting all of their attention. On the next round, 15 of the soldiers tried to pile aroudn him while the rest attacked us.
He actually ended up dividing their melee troups in half. He never once took a hit, and had the biggest kill count of us all.
There’s a situation where winning initiative in a similar situation as today’s actually helped.
If we faced 10,000 soldiers I’m sure things would have been different, though.
All I can say to that, since my character is a mage is: CHAIN LIGHTNING!
Am I the only one that noticed that the DM’s response to the request for Monty Python quotes, WAS a Monty Python quote.
And to Blindeye YAAAAAY Warforged. Probably my fav. type of character in the Ebberon series.
Thats awesomes. :)
I found your comic the other day from a link form the wotc boards.. i’m loving it! Its all so true.. haha, i can place my group in there in so many comics..!
I don’t know if “I won’t” really counts as a direct quote :p
and woooo!!!
First comment!
Love the comic BTW ;)
Best use of the LOTR movies I have seen yet, including the actual movies :p
Initiative would be the least of your Dungeon Mastering worries in this kind of DnD scenario. You could roll once and then adjust that number according to the initiative bonuses of your monsters. Or you could have a computer do it. Computers love to count to 1 from 0, but they can do it really fast.
The biggest issue is that if you end up with a level difference of 6 or more between opponents, you may as well not fight the battle. Gimli is a fairly powerful hero, likely 10th level but possibly higher. Orcs in DnD are rated at CR1/2. Uruk Hai are likely CR1 and maybe CR2. Commanders may have up to 5 levels of warrior on top of their challenge rating adjustment. Translating all of this out of DnD-cant and back to Common: Gimli the 10th level DnD dwarf fighter could theoretically take out the Host of Mordor by himself, slowing only because he would have to hit some of the Uruk-Hai commanders twice before they died. In DnD, if the entire Fellowship focused on the Host the saga could be re-written as a 12-page short story.
Now all this is pure speculation on my part. I’ve seen the Fellowship a few times, read the books and run a DnD game or two over the past 30 years, so I know some things, but we’re talking about the difference between a movie and an Pencil-and-Paper RPG. Any attempt to convert one to the other is going to be a best-guess on the part of the converter. Maybe Gimli is only 4th level and the Uruk Hai are all 9th level warriors, but I doubt it.
I don’t think you could do a faithful reproduction of the Lord of the Rings in a DnD campaign. I think that’s part of the reason I find your comic so amusing, Shamus. It humorously points out the many places DnD falls short in delivering on its high-adventure fantasy gaming promise while simultaneously poking fun at the stories that led directly to its creation, the Lord of the Rings saga.
Keep up the good work.
I almost always love winning initiative with my current char. See, he’s a level 8 Paladin, and has personality that makes him take every possible chance to jump in front of the rest of the party and be the meatshield. It creates plenty of trouble, but hey, that’s the way of the Lawful Good… Or something.
Actually, in the old LotR roleplaying game, orcs could level up exactly like the PCs, so you face orc chieftans who might be 15th-20th level. Yeah, most of them are 1st level grunts, but there were plenty of the tougher fellows, too.
Presence Says:
What the hell is a socerer?
Hahah! Judging someones spelling and grammar, and then having that in your text! Where the hell is most of your punctuation!
Hardeharhar!
Imagine judging someone’s punctuation without doing it right yourself.
:o)))))))
Steve.
Geeze peolpe, cutt each oter some slack on thes pelling and grammer its not leik yuo can’t edit yours com ment afters you the “submit buttun!
I’m just sayin’.
Will the sarcasm arms race continue? WILL THERE BE A SECOND COLD WAR?!?
Time will tell… so tune in in a couple minutes!
Ben
In my experience, the DM is God. Therefor, it’s the English language that has failed the DM.
ignoring the language lessons, i have to wonder… if he did roll init for 10,000 orcs what are the odds that a PC actaully ended up first? I think the GM is fudging!
Actually, about 1,667 orcs rolled a 6 on their initiative, and went first. Being melee fighters, they did nothing, just like Gimli.
But being NPCs, they didn’t waste time complaining about it.
DM: Okay Gimli, you won initiative. Actions?
Gimli: I COWER!
DM: …
Gimli: Fine! (ahem) I cower… BRAVELY!
On a more serious note, Gimli only managed to do something useful when the wall finally got breached. Dwarven fighters on human walls are there to repel siege ladders and towers.
And yes, taken strictly, it’s difficult to simulate realistic battle conditions using d20. It’s not impossible, but it takes work. Especially since standard d20 doesn’t have rules for battle-fatigue and being overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
You should of let Gimili taunt go into Monty Python mode. I reckon it would of been hilarious imagining him standing at the wall of Helm’s Deep, shouting in a french accent and taunting the orcs!
I do *not* want to hear a player’s idea of a French / Dwarvish accent.
I say he throws Legolas down on the orcs. Hey, you never know.
The Heroes of Battle supplement is good. Not great, but good. Gives a fair amount of flavor for ways that the PCs can interact with and affect a battle, and also gives good rules for PCs as commanders of squadrons of the army. But there’s no perfect solution; D&D just isn’t a wargame despite its ancestry.
Doesn’t the “Gimli runs wipes out the host of Mordor” argument always run into the “5% of all rolls are natural 20s, and no one survives 100 arrow hits” objection? A high-level party with spellcasters and such might be able to wipe out an army of thousands if they convenientlhy line up, but one fighter or even a grup of fighters can’t. The only chance is to close to melee range immediately (so you’re never faced with 10000 archers), win initiative, and always be able to Cleave your way through every enemy within range before they can move. Still won’t work if the bad guys remember that they can Charge…
I remember reading that when they animated this battle, it was impossible for them to manually animate all the orcs, so they wrote an AI to take care of it. Problem was, the orcs kept routing. At a certain point the AI started screaming “Run away! Run away!” They had to change the AI algorithm to prevent that so that the orcs would stay and let themselves be slaughtered.
On a different point, a well-designed medieval fortification is an unbelievable force multiplier. During the crusades, there was a Crusader fort in Lebanon which stood against siege for years with only a few dozen defenders.
One thing I’ve realized is that a big horde of low level warriors could challenge any level to some degree. They’re not just going to stand around a high level PC and make an attack, just look at Amon Hen, Aragorn literally has to punch and struggle out of grapples. I usually have the first half-dozen/dozen orcs try to grapple a single PC, the next half-dozen/dozen attack, the next half-dozen/dozen overrun and etc. Plus if none of this works there is tripping, sundering and many other means of putting even a high level character in check.
A single PC of high level might cut down quite a few enemies but he alone is not going to cut down an army since mostly it can just plow right past him and hold him at bay while the rest of the army fights the rest of the other army.
Woerlan Says:
And yes, taken strictly, it’s difficult to simulate realistic battle conditions using d20. It’s not impossible, but it takes work. Especially since standard d20 doesn’t have rules for battle-fatigue and being overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
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First off, where pray-tell, is the reply-to or quote function on here?
Secondly, while D&D doesn’t have a combat-weariness system (fatigue in the Wound Point variant is from taking damage, not the act of fighting) I would say that there are indeed rules for overbearing: The Aid Another Action.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm
There’s 8 squares adjacent to a medium-sized player character and (with reach weapons) another 16 outside of that. The enemy delays their actions to ready-up and charge as one, with half of them using their +2 bonuses to increase the AC of the monster with the best grapple modifier (preventing a great cleave from wiping them out) and the other half using their +2 bonuses to improve the lead grappler’s attack bonus. Most of the enemy will be capable of hitting AC 10 (don’t forget the attack bonuses for flanking and charging) so that’s a pretty hefty bonus to both surviving any AoOs and also to pulling down Mr. Conan over there.
Even thru attrition, with enough enemies coordinating on the Aid Another actions, the warrior will get scratched up and when the finally need to pop a potion that’s a whole world of AoOs on their hide. With enough numbers even low-CR enemies can pose a serious threat — just consider rush-hour traffic. ;)
To all you D&D-haters out there…
Assist Other – Hit AC10 to give your buddy either a +2 to Attack or AC.
Let’s see… There are eight spaces around a character, if we’re not assuming any reach weapons. Four attacks at +4 (Flank + Assist) are already looking good. Double up, and it’s two attacks at +8 for those really hard to reach places.
Did somene say “reach”? Assume reach weapons, and you can have up to 24 attackers for each target… That’s eight attacks at +2 and four at +4. Or really max it out for four attacks at +12 (Flank and five assists each).
Telas
I always laugh at my warrior players when they don’t bother taking a ranged weapon of any kind. This situation is precisely why lol. Even when you take a penalty to hit … 10,000!! It’s like firing into a lake and expecting to hit … air? duh!
I’ve seen many references to DnD and other popular D20 systems concerning mass combat (yes i realize the idea is based on DnD). For something like this I’d try to convert from the Roll/Keep system AEG uses. Much faster and easier. Not to mention the rediculous amounts of rediculousness you can get your players into. Gimli wants to surf? Go for it!
Presence Says:
What the hell is a socerer?
Hahah! Judging someones spelling and grammar, and then having that in your text! Where the hell is most of your punctuation!
this isn’t here to make fun of my lack of time to check for spelling errors.
comment the comic or comment nothing at all
why does everyone care so much about typos?? this isn’t english school..
great comic btw!! i’m playing a dwarf fighter and that situation is so true it hurts..
I think my DM offers us a chance to defer if we choose not to act on high initiative (basically you can choose to attck as opportunity arises and interrupt a foe’s strike), or use it to roll play alerting the other paty members. Also good for sneaks who can set traps quickly…
ExcellNt wRk, Shmus! LooooL
/Kelis raises another point:
My initiative brings the Orcs to the yard
- damn right, it’s lower than yours –
I could roll twice, who’s keepin’ score?
That’s part of the rules as written, actually…
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready
When you don’t want to go immediately, there’s two things you can do – Delay, or Ready.
Delay won’t let you interrupt anything, and Ready lets you select an action (Standard Action) that will go right before a predetermined trigger condition.
The benefits of Delay is that you’ll be able to do something regardless of if the triggered condition goes off.
For example, if you Ready an attack for when the orc charges you, right when he gets in range but before the orc gets his attack, you get to strike. From that point on, your init is right before his. However, if he chooses instead to (for example) cast a Summon Monster spell, you’ll have to wait until your normal init comes around again before you can act (thus wasting a round). If you had delayed, you would simply go after the orc then during that round, and hopefully disrupt his spell.