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	<title>Comments on: Procedural City, Part 6: Sky</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?feed=rss2&#038;p=3068" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068</link>
	<description>Dork is the new cool</description>
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		<title>By: Kacky Snorgle</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121099</link>
		<dc:creator>Kacky Snorgle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 01:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121099</guid>
		<description>Concurring in the general hope that nothing I&#039;ve said came across as demanding; none of it was meant to.  It&#039;s just that I don&#039;t know anything about the programming involved here, so all I can do is alternately be awed by the results and nitpick them, without any real sense of which reaction is truly more appropriate at any given moment.  :)

Long as I&#039;m in nitpick mode, though, one additional random thought: would it be feasible to take the sky &quot;lampshade&quot; and tilt it a few degrees off vertical?  That might be enough to give you a quasi-realistic sunset effect extending just partway around the horizon.

On the other hand, it might be hard to implement for reasons I wouldn&#039;t understand, or it might just not look right.  I dunno.  This is the Internet; I don&#039;t have to have a clue in order to type stuff here....  ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Concurring in the general hope that nothing I&#8217;ve said came across as demanding; none of it was meant to.  It&#8217;s just that I don&#8217;t know anything about the programming involved here, so all I can do is alternately be awed by the results and nitpick them, without any real sense of which reaction is truly more appropriate at any given moment.  :)</p>
<p>Long as I&#8217;m in nitpick mode, though, one additional random thought: would it be feasible to take the sky &#8220;lampshade&#8221; and tilt it a few degrees off vertical?  That might be enough to give you a quasi-realistic sunset effect extending just partway around the horizon.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it might be hard to implement for reasons I wouldn&#8217;t understand, or it might just not look right.  I dunno.  This is the Internet; I don&#8217;t have to have a clue in order to type stuff here&#8230;.  ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Shamus</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121096</link>
		<dc:creator>Shamus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121096</guid>
		<description>Alan: No, the fault is mine.  I put this stuff up for everyone to see.  It&#039;s quite natural for people to simply say what they&#039;re thinking.  That&#039;s the very best sort of feedback, even if it doesn&#039;t feel good.  I was just grouchy after a few dozen of them.  Perhaps I need to read them in smaller doses.  

Please don&#039;t stop giving feedback.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan: No, the fault is mine.  I put this stuff up for everyone to see.  It&#8217;s quite natural for people to simply say what they&#8217;re thinking.  That&#8217;s the very best sort of feedback, even if it doesn&#8217;t feel good.  I was just grouchy after a few dozen of them.  Perhaps I need to read them in smaller doses.  </p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t stop giving feedback.  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121090</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 22:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121090</guid>
		<description>Dear Shamus,

Firstly, I would like to apologise for any anguish, mental or otherwise that I have caused by my previous post.  This was not my intention.  I guess that I thought since so many other people have been commenting on the project, one more wouldn&#039;t hurt, however since mine was one of the comments specifically picked out in your response, I guess it must have.

I have re-read my original comment above, and while I can appreciate that nitpicking is not a good thing, having thought about it, I think that different people value different parts of a project differently.

To be honest, I don&#039;t understand much programming, but I do know what a sunset looks like.  I would have made the buildings blocks with random blobs of light as windows and called it a day with them, but those extra steps you took make it look a lot more interesting.

Likewise, I would have spent more time on the skyline, because I don&#039;t know how to make a car overtake another one, but I do know how a skyline should look.

These are just different flavours of awesomesauce.

It was my impression that you were trying to make something that looks ok from a distance, but wouldn’t stand up to close scrutiny.  Amongst a city made of buildings which look pretty good, having a skyline which has a literal line all the way around it didn’t feel up to the same standard.  Since you normally have such attention to detail, I wondered whether looking at still images with a band of sunset had prompted something like my 5th comment in the 2.5 years I have been reading the site.

I really do appreciate that you create posts such as this one, that is after all the reason why I keep coming back to this blog, and it is the only blog that I regularly read.

Over a whole day has passed since your comment and this response.  I have actually been thinking about this, and commenting on blogs in general because such things prey on my mind sometimes.

I know a lot of the &#039;u r teh suxxors&#039; type comments come from the fact that the Internet gives you anonymity, and when re-reading my comment, I wondered whether if we were face to face I would have said the same thing.

I came to the conclusion that, yes, I probably would have.

However, I don&#039;t think that I would have got the same sort of reaction (Except the bit about the dog) because if we were talking, then it would have come as part of a discussion, rather than an unexpected stab from the shadows.

As a person who takes such things seriously; does that make it alright?  Ultimately, I guess that only you can decide how you feel.

The Internet is an impersonal medium, which is why things like real shops will probably never truly disappear, as the ability to look at the things that you are buying will always be liked, but the art of conversation is being hurt by the fact that people can say whatever they want.

Hmm, my last sentence made me think that you have full editing / deleting facilities for comments, so if they bother you, no one need ever know that these comments ever existed, but that is the subject for another 500 word long comment, so for now I leave you with the following:

You = great
My previous comment (Plus a few comments from others) = great -1
My future comments = 0

Once again, apologies for any annoyance caused, I suggest you name a zombie after me on Left 4 Dead if you feel that bad.

P/S by the way, the dog enjoyed the walk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Shamus,</p>
<p>Firstly, I would like to apologise for any anguish, mental or otherwise that I have caused by my previous post.  This was not my intention.  I guess that I thought since so many other people have been commenting on the project, one more wouldn&#8217;t hurt, however since mine was one of the comments specifically picked out in your response, I guess it must have.</p>
<p>I have re-read my original comment above, and while I can appreciate that nitpicking is not a good thing, having thought about it, I think that different people value different parts of a project differently.</p>
<p>To be honest, I don&#8217;t understand much programming, but I do know what a sunset looks like.  I would have made the buildings blocks with random blobs of light as windows and called it a day with them, but those extra steps you took make it look a lot more interesting.</p>
<p>Likewise, I would have spent more time on the skyline, because I don&#8217;t know how to make a car overtake another one, but I do know how a skyline should look.</p>
<p>These are just different flavours of awesomesauce.</p>
<p>It was my impression that you were trying to make something that looks ok from a distance, but wouldn’t stand up to close scrutiny.  Amongst a city made of buildings which look pretty good, having a skyline which has a literal line all the way around it didn’t feel up to the same standard.  Since you normally have such attention to detail, I wondered whether looking at still images with a band of sunset had prompted something like my 5th comment in the 2.5 years I have been reading the site.</p>
<p>I really do appreciate that you create posts such as this one, that is after all the reason why I keep coming back to this blog, and it is the only blog that I regularly read.</p>
<p>Over a whole day has passed since your comment and this response.  I have actually been thinking about this, and commenting on blogs in general because such things prey on my mind sometimes.</p>
<p>I know a lot of the &#8216;u r teh suxxors&#8217; type comments come from the fact that the Internet gives you anonymity, and when re-reading my comment, I wondered whether if we were face to face I would have said the same thing.</p>
<p>I came to the conclusion that, yes, I probably would have.</p>
<p>However, I don&#8217;t think that I would have got the same sort of reaction (Except the bit about the dog) because if we were talking, then it would have come as part of a discussion, rather than an unexpected stab from the shadows.</p>
<p>As a person who takes such things seriously; does that make it alright?  Ultimately, I guess that only you can decide how you feel.</p>
<p>The Internet is an impersonal medium, which is why things like real shops will probably never truly disappear, as the ability to look at the things that you are buying will always be liked, but the art of conversation is being hurt by the fact that people can say whatever they want.</p>
<p>Hmm, my last sentence made me think that you have full editing / deleting facilities for comments, so if they bother you, no one need ever know that these comments ever existed, but that is the subject for another 500 word long comment, so for now I leave you with the following:</p>
<p>You = great<br />
My previous comment (Plus a few comments from others) = great -1<br />
My future comments = 0</p>
<p>Once again, apologies for any annoyance caused, I suggest you name a zombie after me on Left 4 Dead if you feel that bad.</p>
<p>P/S by the way, the dog enjoyed the walk.</p>
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		<title>By: Anachronist</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121056</link>
		<dc:creator>Anachronist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 14:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121056</guid>
		<description>Shamus, I dunno -  those clouds look to me like an inverted sea of water with gently rolling waves.

You may not realize it, but you &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; knew how to generate clouds years ago. There&#039;s no getting around the fact that clouds are fractal. One can get pretty good clouds using a fractal terrain generator, in which one generates opacities instead of elevations.

One can also do tricks like pre-biasing the landscape elevations (skyscape opacities) to give higher opacity toward the horizon, and even have a nonlinear transparency &quot;waterline&quot; that changes &quot;elevation&quot; toward the horizon.

Of course, you&#039;d then project all this onto your horizon bitmap so you don&#039;t have to worry about rendering the skyscape.

I think you&#039;ll be pleased with the clouds you get using a fractal landscape algorithm. It might be just a few tweaks on your existing past work.

-Alex</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shamus, I dunno &#8211;  those clouds look to me like an inverted sea of water with gently rolling waves.</p>
<p>You may not realize it, but you <i>already</i> knew how to generate clouds years ago. There&#8217;s no getting around the fact that clouds are fractal. One can get pretty good clouds using a fractal terrain generator, in which one generates opacities instead of elevations.</p>
<p>One can also do tricks like pre-biasing the landscape elevations (skyscape opacities) to give higher opacity toward the horizon, and even have a nonlinear transparency &#8220;waterline&#8221; that changes &#8220;elevation&#8221; toward the horizon.</p>
<p>Of course, you&#8217;d then project all this onto your horizon bitmap so you don&#8217;t have to worry about rendering the skyscape.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ll be pleased with the clouds you get using a fractal landscape algorithm. It might be just a few tweaks on your existing past work.</p>
<p>-Alex</p>
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		<title>By: Kell</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121038</link>
		<dc:creator>Kell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121038</guid>
		<description>Shamus:

Increasingly demanding feedback is, unconsciously, a compliment of your work. It happens because like-minded people see the potential in something you&#039;re doing, see that you&#039;ve caught the spirit of it, and the crowd surges forward to take advantage of the opportunity.
Because geeks tend to be concerned only with ideas and the expression thereof, the feedback is insensitive and selfish.
At least it&#039;s a sign of success.

If you&#039;re surprised by the demanding reaction to a 30-hour hobby program, try devoting 3 years of your life to an old FPS mod. Now &lt;i&gt;that&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; a sharp lesson in human ingratitude :P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shamus:</p>
<p>Increasingly demanding feedback is, unconsciously, a compliment of your work. It happens because like-minded people see the potential in something you&#8217;re doing, see that you&#8217;ve caught the spirit of it, and the crowd surges forward to take advantage of the opportunity.<br />
Because geeks tend to be concerned only with ideas and the expression thereof, the feedback is insensitive and selfish.<br />
At least it&#8217;s a sign of success.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re surprised by the demanding reaction to a 30-hour hobby program, try devoting 3 years of your life to an old FPS mod. Now <i>that&#8217;s</i> a sharp lesson in human ingratitude :P</p>
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		<title>By: stringycustard</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121037</link>
		<dc:creator>stringycustard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121037</guid>
		<description>Wow, dude. You&#039;re getting flamed for trying to show people something interesting. I&#039;m digging how this is going so far. I kinda liked the fractal cloud thing - reminded me a bit of the art style of Monkey Island 3. It gives me urges to try build something entirely fractally (spell check says that isn&#039;t a word but I say different). Looking forward to the next step in this project.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, dude. You&#8217;re getting flamed for trying to show people something interesting. I&#8217;m digging how this is going so far. I kinda liked the fractal cloud thing &#8211; reminded me a bit of the art style of Monkey Island 3. It gives me urges to try build something entirely fractally (spell check says that isn&#8217;t a word but I say different). Looking forward to the next step in this project.</p>
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		<title>By: beno</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121031</link>
		<dc:creator>beno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 05:20:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121031</guid>
		<description>I think this project is totally cool.  Reminds me that when I was in high school, my ambition was to be a programmer of awesome 3d games and graphics like this. For some reason I decided against it - something about not wanting to stare at a computer screen all day.  The irony is that I went on to study/practice Engineering then Physics and now Statistics, and all of these have involved heavy computing hours and programming.  Dang!  I&#039;ll just have to live vicariously through people like Shamus - so thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this project is totally cool.  Reminds me that when I was in high school, my ambition was to be a programmer of awesome 3d games and graphics like this. For some reason I decided against it &#8211; something about not wanting to stare at a computer screen all day.  The irony is that I went on to study/practice Engineering then Physics and now Statistics, and all of these have involved heavy computing hours and programming.  Dang!  I&#8217;ll just have to live vicariously through people like Shamus &#8211; so thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068&#038;cpage=1#comment-121012</link>
		<dc:creator>Julian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 19:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=3068#comment-121012</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not that sky is severely flawed. It&#039;s just that, when compared to an otherwise very realistic-looking city, the sky seems a bit off, if you understand what I mean.
Most people have said that the horizon line is too bright. I think the problem is not with the brightness, but that the gradient from warm colours to blue is a bit abrupt.
Other than that, I can&#039;t say anything that hasn&#039;t been said already. I love how this project is coming out, and I enjoy seeing it evolve from just black boxes with tinier white boxes in them to a very believable city.
Oh, and I wonder: are you planning on making some streets wider to suggest avenues and the like? I don&#039;t know anything about programming, but at least it doesn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;sound&lt;/i&gt; difficult to implement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not that sky is severely flawed. It&#8217;s just that, when compared to an otherwise very realistic-looking city, the sky seems a bit off, if you understand what I mean.<br />
Most people have said that the horizon line is too bright. I think the problem is not with the brightness, but that the gradient from warm colours to blue is a bit abrupt.<br />
Other than that, I can&#8217;t say anything that hasn&#8217;t been said already. I love how this project is coming out, and I enjoy seeing it evolve from just black boxes with tinier white boxes in them to a very believable city.<br />
Oh, and I wonder: are you planning on making some streets wider to suggest avenues and the like? I don&#8217;t know anything about programming, but at least it doesn&#8217;t <i>sound</i> difficult to implement.</p>
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