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	<title>Comments on: Treacherous Computing</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?feed=rss2&#038;p=1807" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807</link>
	<description>Dork is the new cool</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 23:28:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: UtopiaV1</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-111853</link>
		<dc:creator>UtopiaV1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 16:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-111853</guid>
		<description>The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe.
- H. L. Mencken

Pretty much sums up what you spent the past 30 minutes saying in greater detail! I like the video, I don&#039;t like whats going to happen (or what&#039;s already happened) to my computer. Hopefully we haven&#039;t all grown so fat and lazy that we won&#039;t take up (metaphorical) arms against injustices like this. Viva la Linux!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe.<br />
- H. L. Mencken</p>
<p>Pretty much sums up what you spent the past 30 minutes saying in greater detail! I like the video, I don&#8217;t like whats going to happen (or what&#8217;s already happened) to my computer. Hopefully we haven&#8217;t all grown so fat and lazy that we won&#8217;t take up (metaphorical) arms against injustices like this. Viva la Linux!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Arndt</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-105817</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Arndt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-105817</guid>
		<description>Goshdamned nanny-staters.

Take that as you will.

Leave me the fark alone Bill Gates!

I want to back up my Star Wars DVDs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goshdamned nanny-staters.</p>
<p>Take that as you will.</p>
<p>Leave me the fark alone Bill Gates!</p>
<p>I want to back up my Star Wars DVDs.</p>
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		<title>By: Shamus</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-105315</link>
		<dc:creator>Shamus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-105315</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t get into the whole supply / demand tradeoff business because I thought the concept to be so obvious that I didn&#039;t need to bring it up.

Yes, little markets go unfilled.  But we&#039;re not talking about little markets here.  We&#039;re talking about governments and multi billion dollar companies. And we agree on this.  And those people need hardware.  And it would be very hard to keep asian hardware companies from going after that money. Which was my entire point.

The rest of the comment skates very close to politics. I really don&#039;t see a need for paragraphs on tax policy and public opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t get into the whole supply / demand tradeoff business because I thought the concept to be so obvious that I didn&#8217;t need to bring it up.</p>
<p>Yes, little markets go unfilled.  But we&#8217;re not talking about little markets here.  We&#8217;re talking about governments and multi billion dollar companies. And we agree on this.  And those people need hardware.  And it would be very hard to keep asian hardware companies from going after that money. Which was my entire point.</p>
<p>The rest of the comment skates very close to politics. I really don&#8217;t see a need for paragraphs on tax policy and public opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-105312</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-105312</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Many large businesses have very huge infrastructure built on Linux.&lt;/i&gt;
At least I know for a fact that the Canadian Government doesn&#039;t trust any Microsoft products for their servers or important data.
The computers in the bunker all used something I can&#039;t recall right now, while the wageslaves used Windows for their spreadsheets and such.

&lt;i&gt;Any hardware-based encryption has this weakness. Of course, that’s another good reason to use hardware-based encryption only on the most ridiculously vital stuff (and check your hardware regularly)…

…which would not be anything Joe Average uses. Another reason this is a bad idea.&lt;/i&gt;

The US Army specifications for the TPM is specifically for securing data. &lt;b&gt;Not software&lt;/b&gt;. If any of their software for the warfighters even has the potential to be locked down, they probably won&#039;t allow it. The moment one single person dies because of some idiot vendor, a lot of people will be hung.


A random comment on free markets:
&quot;If there is a demand it will be filled&quot; isn&#039;t strictly true.
As always, we go to our trusty supply and demand graph.
The supply curve is how many systems a producer is willing to create to sell at a certain price.
The demand curve is how many consumers are willing to buy a system at a certain price.

The revised statement is thus:
If there is a demand strong enough that the consumer will pay almost any price for, then it will eventually be filled.
At equilibrium, obviously.

This is of course a single product. With multiple products (ie. streetcars and automobiles) that are exclusive, then equilibrium must account for both.
In the case of streetcars, we must consider that Government spending makes up demand as well.
In otherwords, it&#039;s the government&#039;s fault. If they wanted streetcars enough to drive up demand and lower price, then we would be in a world of public transit, not private cars.
All that is required is the raising of taxes and considerably investment.
This increases the demand, lowering prices for services, while removing the disposable income of the Consumers, and as automobiles tend to be a Leisure good, sales would dissappear.

This requires a government that is actually, you know, good. As opposed to those idiots would lower taxes to get themselves in power.
There are many (currently) unmarketable things that should be done that aren&#039;t, because they are unpopular.
Sadly, this means the &quot;less good&quot; option receives the most Investment and the cost of switching increases exponentially.

Strict on this though, the alternatives need to be better yet to draw the consumers there. Right now the exclusive good&#039;s desirability is so low it still has a tiny market share with a price point of $0.
You can blame a large chunk of this on the complimentary goods tied in with it though, i.e. software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Many large businesses have very huge infrastructure built on Linux.</i><br />
At least I know for a fact that the Canadian Government doesn&#8217;t trust any Microsoft products for their servers or important data.<br />
The computers in the bunker all used something I can&#8217;t recall right now, while the wageslaves used Windows for their spreadsheets and such.</p>
<p><i>Any hardware-based encryption has this weakness. Of course, that’s another good reason to use hardware-based encryption only on the most ridiculously vital stuff (and check your hardware regularly)…</p>
<p>…which would not be anything Joe Average uses. Another reason this is a bad idea.</i></p>
<p>The US Army specifications for the TPM is specifically for securing data. <b>Not software</b>. If any of their software for the warfighters even has the potential to be locked down, they probably won&#8217;t allow it. The moment one single person dies because of some idiot vendor, a lot of people will be hung.</p>
<p>A random comment on free markets:<br />
&#8220;If there is a demand it will be filled&#8221; isn&#8217;t strictly true.<br />
As always, we go to our trusty supply and demand graph.<br />
The supply curve is how many systems a producer is willing to create to sell at a certain price.<br />
The demand curve is how many consumers are willing to buy a system at a certain price.</p>
<p>The revised statement is thus:<br />
If there is a demand strong enough that the consumer will pay almost any price for, then it will eventually be filled.<br />
At equilibrium, obviously.</p>
<p>This is of course a single product. With multiple products (ie. streetcars and automobiles) that are exclusive, then equilibrium must account for both.<br />
In the case of streetcars, we must consider that Government spending makes up demand as well.<br />
In otherwords, it&#8217;s the government&#8217;s fault. If they wanted streetcars enough to drive up demand and lower price, then we would be in a world of public transit, not private cars.<br />
All that is required is the raising of taxes and considerably investment.<br />
This increases the demand, lowering prices for services, while removing the disposable income of the Consumers, and as automobiles tend to be a Leisure good, sales would dissappear.</p>
<p>This requires a government that is actually, you know, good. As opposed to those idiots would lower taxes to get themselves in power.<br />
There are many (currently) unmarketable things that should be done that aren&#8217;t, because they are unpopular.<br />
Sadly, this means the &#8220;less good&#8221; option receives the most Investment and the cost of switching increases exponentially.</p>
<p>Strict on this though, the alternatives need to be better yet to draw the consumers there. Right now the exclusive good&#8217;s desirability is so low it still has a tiny market share with a price point of $0.<br />
You can blame a large chunk of this on the complimentary goods tied in with it though, i.e. software.</p>
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		<title>By: Cuthalion</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-104991</link>
		<dc:creator>Cuthalion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-104991</guid>
		<description>On switching to Linux:

Let&#039;s say I&#039;m being bullied at school. Some guys are pushing me around and stealing my lunch money. Every. Day. And worse yet, the school staff commends them for &quot;leadership&quot; or some other such thing and gives me detention when I complain.

However, there is another school I could go to, where nobody steals my lunch money and bullies get expelled. The only problem is the initiation: all new students must go through a hideous hazing process involving rocks and sticks and knives and pain to get in. And once you&#039;re in, half your classes are conducted in a foreign language, which you must learn to speak fluently in order to attend without being laughed at.

That&#039;s my experience. Pick your poison, I guess.

EDIT: Yes, I&#039;ve tried Linux. I have an old version of Ubuntu on my computer. I like being able to install software with a click, but if that software&#039;s not in its database, it&#039;s a pain. And even with that I still have trouble running some stuff. Not everyone that makes Linux stuff cares about people like me, who don&#039;t want to learn the console to run things. Maybe I should try again with a more cooperative network firewall...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On switching to Linux:</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say I&#8217;m being bullied at school. Some guys are pushing me around and stealing my lunch money. Every. Day. And worse yet, the school staff commends them for &#8220;leadership&#8221; or some other such thing and gives me detention when I complain.</p>
<p>However, there is another school I could go to, where nobody steals my lunch money and bullies get expelled. The only problem is the initiation: all new students must go through a hideous hazing process involving rocks and sticks and knives and pain to get in. And once you&#8217;re in, half your classes are conducted in a foreign language, which you must learn to speak fluently in order to attend without being laughed at.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my experience. Pick your poison, I guess.</p>
<p>EDIT: Yes, I&#8217;ve tried Linux. I have an old version of Ubuntu on my computer. I like being able to install software with a click, but if that software&#8217;s not in its database, it&#8217;s a pain. And even with that I still have trouble running some stuff. Not everyone that makes Linux stuff cares about people like me, who don&#8217;t want to learn the console to run things. Maybe I should try again with a more cooperative network firewall&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Curaidh</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-104987</link>
		<dc:creator>Curaidh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-104987</guid>
		<description>This one is a very interesting Post, thanks Shamus. And again it feels good to live in europe. Germany might be overly bureaucratic and annoying from time to time, but our data protection and privacy protection rights are intact. TPM would be a problem here. Remember that &quot;Europe&quot; keeps fining MS for all different sorts of violations that they might get away with in the US.
So as long as we exist and are a valuable market share, you should not worry too much. ;)

JB: You need not worry about TPM and PS3. Sony learned a bit from their media disasters with their rootkits etc. As long as your PS3 can run Yellowdog Linux there is no need to be afraid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This one is a very interesting Post, thanks Shamus. And again it feels good to live in europe. Germany might be overly bureaucratic and annoying from time to time, but our data protection and privacy protection rights are intact. TPM would be a problem here. Remember that &#8220;Europe&#8221; keeps fining MS for all different sorts of violations that they might get away with in the US.<br />
So as long as we exist and are a valuable market share, you should not worry too much. ;)</p>
<p>JB: You need not worry about TPM and PS3. Sony learned a bit from their media disasters with their rootkits etc. As long as your PS3 can run Yellowdog Linux there is no need to be afraid.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve C</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-104985</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-104985</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;@77 Ian B. / Spectere: &lt;b&gt;The only way TPM would work&lt;/b&gt;...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The only way for DRM to work... &lt;b&gt;is if the laws of physics were re-rewritten.&lt;/b&gt;

You seem to have issue with the way I describe TPM and to prove me wrong you describe obvious ways to defeat TPM. It&#039;s DRM. &lt;b&gt;All&lt;/b&gt; DRM is fundamentally flawed and all versions (now and forever) will have an obvious weak point.

Treacherous Computing is the worst not because it&#039;s &quot;uncrackable&quot; but because it&#039;s the first DRM that uses a combination of hardware and software. It needs a combination of hardware and software to avoid. Before all you needed was software, but now you also need hardware. (Post #70 describes other ways to pull out TPM&#039;s teeth.)

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;If my CPU were spitting out encrypted data and nothing else knew how to handle it my computer would be useless.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

True, but TPM doesn&#039;t work like that. TPM is not a chip, but you can have a chip that has a sole purpose of dealing with TPM. A TPM protected chip (like a CPU) doesn&#039;t encrypt regular data sent to it. Regular unencrypted data passes through without issue. The TPM component only does something if it receives encrypted data. When it receives encrypted data it decrypts it using the secret key on it&#039;s firmware, processes the info and re-encrypts it signing it with it&#039;s own meta data as it leaves that component.

That&#039;s what I was getting at before... you are safe as long as you don&#039;t use software (like Vista) that sends encrypted data to the components in the first place. And yes, for TPM to work it would have to be system wide and if you &lt;i&gt;ensure&lt;/i&gt; it isn&#039;t system wide, then it cannot work. Like all DRM, fundamentally it &lt;i&gt;cannot&lt;/i&gt; work but the hoops you have to jump through to deal with it can be a pain in the ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite=""><p>@77 Ian B. / Spectere: <b>The only way TPM would work</b>&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>The only way for DRM to work&#8230; <b>is if the laws of physics were re-rewritten.</b></p>
<p>You seem to have issue with the way I describe TPM and to prove me wrong you describe obvious ways to defeat TPM. It&#8217;s DRM. <b>All</b> DRM is fundamentally flawed and all versions (now and forever) will have an obvious weak point.</p>
<p>Treacherous Computing is the worst not because it&#8217;s &#8220;uncrackable&#8221; but because it&#8217;s the first DRM that uses a combination of hardware and software. It needs a combination of hardware and software to avoid. Before all you needed was software, but now you also need hardware. (Post #70 describes other ways to pull out TPM&#8217;s teeth.)</p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>If my CPU were spitting out encrypted data and nothing else knew how to handle it my computer would be useless.</p></blockquote>
<p>True, but TPM doesn&#8217;t work like that. TPM is not a chip, but you can have a chip that has a sole purpose of dealing with TPM. A TPM protected chip (like a CPU) doesn&#8217;t encrypt regular data sent to it. Regular unencrypted data passes through without issue. The TPM component only does something if it receives encrypted data. When it receives encrypted data it decrypts it using the secret key on it&#8217;s firmware, processes the info and re-encrypts it signing it with it&#8217;s own meta data as it leaves that component.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I was getting at before&#8230; you are safe as long as you don&#8217;t use software (like Vista) that sends encrypted data to the components in the first place. And yes, for TPM to work it would have to be system wide and if you <i>ensure</i> it isn&#8217;t system wide, then it cannot work. Like all DRM, fundamentally it <i>cannot</i> work but the hoops you have to jump through to deal with it can be a pain in the ass.</p>
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		<title>By: ThaneofFife</title>
		<link>http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807&#038;cpage=2#comment-104965</link>
		<dc:creator>ThaneofFife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:32:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1807#comment-104965</guid>
		<description>@ Steve C:
You had me thinking I was clicking on an actual list with the Godel link! Thanks for the response anyway though, the HDMI stuff was helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Steve C:<br />
You had me thinking I was clicking on an actual list with the Godel link! Thanks for the response anyway though, the HDMI stuff was helpful.</p>
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